Misogyny and the treatment of Night Elves

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10/09/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Akiyass
The Horde has failed in conquering it several times.
Due to plot armor.

10/09/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Akiyass
Is it stupid when Native American's say it?
No. They're real people. This is a video game about a war in which I am intended to be proud of killing you and taking your land while defending my own.

That you would try this underhanded, lowdown, sneaky tactic to try to virtuesignal as well as try to shame me into agreeing with your flimsy argument speaks in a megaphone the type of person and debater you are.
10/09/2018 07:12 PMPosted by Darethy
10/09/2018 07:08 PMPosted by Akiyass
...

You has a misunderstanding of what toxic masculinity is. It is not to say "This certain behavior is toxic" but rather "The perception that this is how a man *should be* is toxic."

So no... Tyrande having victory by these means would not validate toxic masculinity. Nor is Anduin designed to refute a certain behavior, only to merely challenge the perceived notions of what a man is.


But it would do exactly that if Tyrande won the war, Anduin would be wrong for not taking the emotional aggressive choice. Anduin is indeed challenging that behavior, but the very nature of his...well...CHALLENGE, is that by not engaging in that behavior he is a stronger ruler.

Blizzard has written itself into a corner, one of them HAS to be wrong about this.
10/09/2018 07:09 PMPosted by Ferlion
...

On the other hand, Anduin's entire premise is that his goals and the Alliances goals are more important than Tyrande's people and their land. After all, we clearly see that its being blighted, destroyed and corrupted, something we know makes it uninhabitable.

So even if Tyrande loses, it can't really be called irrational aggression.


Which would be correct, if Anduin was fighting just for the humans. But he's fighting for the entire Alliance, including the survival of the Night Elves in Stormwind. If Tyrande loses, then the Alliance could lose the war costing them everything including Ashenvale anyway.


When the answer is "We lose either way", its not irrational on Tyrande's part to try and find a win.
But it would do exactly that if Tyrande won the war, Anduin would be wrong for not taking the emotional aggressive choice. Anduin is indeed challenging that behavior, but the very nature of his...well...CHALLENGE, is that by not engaging in that behavior he is a stronger ruler.


No it doesn't.... There are multiple solutions to problems. Tyrande being right does not mean Anduin is wrong. There are multiple paths to Victory, and they have different stakes in it. Anduin is playing the long war, but Tyrande is fighting for the preservation of her homeland, that is being more and more corrupted by the day.

Different motivations. Different goals. Different solutions.
10/09/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Akiyass
Is it stupid when Native American's say it?
Pls no. I was just joking earlier.

10/09/2018 07:14 PMPosted by Ruthus
It was really performative and silly of you to make a long winded text post where you cut yourself off and declared you weren't discussing this topic. People do that when they're speaking aloud, not when they have time to collect and organize their thoughts.
To ignore very real and true parallels is also extremely silly.
10/09/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Savanovic
The race of warrior women that worship a goddess repeatedly losing and being put in their place by men; in rather horrifically gruesome detail with the most recent war of thorns.


Except they aren't a race of "warrior women." They are a race of formerly immortal elves who have both warrior women and warrior men. And they were not put in their place by men, they were invaded and horrifically murdered by a faction lead by a woman that is also comprised of both men and women.

I don't think it's that people don't understand. It's that people disagree with the way the story is being reduced into a caricature of itself to facilitate this argument.
10/09/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Treng
10/09/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Akiyass
The Horde has failed in conquering it several times.
Due to plot armor.

10/09/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Akiyass
Is it stupid when Native American's say it?
No. They're real people. This is a video game about a war in which I am intended to be proud of killing you and taking your land while defending my own.

That you would try this underhanded, lowdown, sneaky tactic to try to virtuesignal as well as try to shame me into agreeing with your flimsy argument speaks in a megaphone the type of person and debater you are.


not due too plot armor. Because the night elves were amazing at defending it you greenskin. The fact the horde still exist and hasnt been genocided yet is plot armor.
Due to plot armor.


No, due to common sense. The Horde is infamiliar with the area. The Night Elves have allies in the Ancients, Wild Gods, and the Forest itself. When the forests itself is actively trying to kick you out... then you're probably not going to stay long.

10/09/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Treng
That you would try this underhanded, lowdown, sneaky tactic to try to virtuesignal as well as try to shame me into agreeing with your flimsy argument speaks in a megaphone the type of person and debater you are.


Seems like I struck a nerve...

10/09/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Roghter
Except they aren't a race of "warrior women."


Yes they are.

10/09/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Roghter
They are a race of formerly immortal elves who have both warrior women and warrior men.


Only women could be Sentinels until recently. Which is another example of sexist writing.

10/09/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Roghter
lead by a woman


Who's portrayed to be emotionally unstable and spontaneous, which is a typically sexist stereotype for women.
10/09/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Lëora
To ignore very real and true parallels is also extremely silly.


Perhaps the silliest thing of all is to leap to the real world allegory, as if Blizzard is remotely qualified to employ it in their writing, or can be expected to do it with any degree of tact or subtlety.

Calling the Burning of Teldrassil a "genocide" because that word sounded weighty, irrespective of its actual meaning, is a prime example.
10/09/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Treng
No. They're real people. This is a video game about a war in which I am intended to be proud of killing you and taking your land while defending my own.


I mean, it's kind of stupid.

Again, the whole "Our Land" treats the Native Americans as a Homogeneous group despite them being a varied and widespread group of nations... well. It's a little bit racist. Especially since those same Native Americans very often colonized each others land.

But this is an issue with the entire concept if IdPol....

But I mean, the general point makes a pretty soundbyte I guess? The whole concept is wonky, and I think we can own up to the unfortunate and horrifying treatment of Native Americans without unintentionally causing further erasure to their history and nations though.

Least, that's my opinion.
Seems like I struck a nerve...


Yes, your silly melodrama got on someone's nerves. It got on mine, too.

That said, I don't really see Treng's point either, other than that he wants the Horde to take Ashenvale. He has yet to articulate a coherent argument as to why they are morally entitled to.
10/09/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Akiyass
But it would do exactly that if Tyrande won the war, Anduin would be wrong for not taking the emotional aggressive choice. Anduin is indeed challenging that behavior, but the very nature of his...well...CHALLENGE, is that by not engaging in that behavior he is a stronger ruler.


No it doesn't.... There are multiple solutions to problems. Tyrande being right does not mean Anduin is wrong. There are multiple paths to Victory, and they have different stakes in it. Anduin is playing the long war, but Tyrande is fighting for the preservation of her homeland, that is being more and more corrupted by the day.

Different motivations. Different goals. Different solutions.


Which would be fine if their strategies were not in complete opposition to one another. Tyrande's path to victory involves her doing an action that makes no logical sense within Anduin's greater view of winning the war. She's taking critical manpower and resources to a warfront he doesn't even want to open right now. To validate Tyrande, she would have to strike a blow that directly aids Anduin's longer war by crippling the Horde, thus revealing a flaw in Anduin's tactics. To do otherwise would then imply that Tyrande is a burden to the Alliance war effort by diverting those precious resources,

Their strategies are so opposite that they don't even appear to be aiding each other in their own goals, there's no room for a middle man in this.
If you can't reinforce a land more readily than your enemy can, you are probably going to lose.


Then the Horde should have lost from the moment they settled into Durotar... The Night Elves could have maneuvered onto Orgrimmar from the forest, with a long easily defendable supply chain, while the Alliance navy comes from the other side with Theramore. The Horde could have been easily surrounded and starved out. The darkspear trolls and taurens are races that were near extinction, I find it hard to believe them combined with the orcs in a recently created faction would be enough to really hold out that long while besieged in a desert. That's not the way the games story played out of course, so it's meaningless, but still, if we are going to talk about "logic", then there it is.

Due to plot armor.


The Horde as a faction have the most ridiculous "plot armor" I have ever seen.
10/09/2018 07:23 PMPosted by Darethy
Which would be fine if their strategies were not in complete opposition to one another. Tyrande's path to victory involves her doing an action that makes no logical sense within Anduin's greater view of winning the war. She's taking critical manpower and resources to a warfront he doesn't even want to open right now. To validate Tyrande, she would have to strike a blow that directly aids Anduin's longer war by crippling the Horde, thus revealing a flaw in Anduin's tactics. To do otherwise would then imply that Tyrande is a burden to the Alliance war effort by diverting those precious resources,Their strategies are so opposite that they don't even appear to be aiding each other in their own goals, there's no room for a middle man in this.


No... Tyrande can be vindicated in her decision with Victory, and in no way would that reflect negatively on Anduin.
10/09/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Akiyass
Is it stupid when Native American's say it?
Yep. They lost. Deal with it. Native Americans act like they're the only ones who lost land to someone else. Heres a hint, almost ever country in the world had the "natives" driven out by people who eventually stayed and settled. It happens quite often.
10/09/2018 07:16 PMPosted by Akiyass
...

No it doesn't.... There are multiple solutions to problems. Tyrande being right does not mean Anduin is wrong. There are multiple paths to Victory, and they have different stakes in it. Anduin is playing the long war, but Tyrande is fighting for the preservation of her homeland, that is being more and more corrupted by the day.

Different motivations. Different goals. Different solutions.


Which would be fine if their strategies were not in complete opposition to one another. Tyrande's path to victory involves her doing an action that makes no logical sense within Anduin's greater view of winning the war. She's taking critical manpower and resources to a warfront he doesn't even want to open right now. To validate Tyrande, she would have to strike a blow that directly aids Anduin's longer war by crippling the Horde, thus revealing a flaw in Anduin's tactics. To do otherwise would then imply that Tyrande is a burden to the Alliance war effort by diverting those precious resources,

Their strategies are so opposite that they don't even appear to be aiding each other in their own goals, there's no room for a middle man in this.


I mean, if Night Elves show up in Zandalar, then she's aiding him. We don't really know yet, I suppose
10/09/2018 07:20 PMPosted by Ruthus
Calling the Burning of Teldrassil a "genocide" because that word sounded weighty, irrespective of its actual meaning, is a prime example.
We’ve had thousands of threads before this. Blizzard called it that first before the playerbase for once.

As for ‘jumping’ to real life examples. I shouldn’t have to, when there’s already examples in game that already show case what happens when Orcs live by ‘might makes right’ mentalities. I will admit I shouldn’t have but forcefully taking lands and then expecting it to be good deed isn’t the first thing that should come to mind.

If your response is going to be along the lines of Alexander the Great or some other Conquerer, save it. I’ve had to have thousands of conversations like that before and I’m willing to admit I shouldn’t have drawn the real life comparison.
10/09/2018 07:25 PMPosted by Píppen
10/09/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Akiyass
Is it stupid when Native American's say it?
Yep. They lost. Deal with it. Native Americans act like they're the only ones who lost land to someone else. Heres a hint, almost ever country in the world had the "natives" driven out by people who eventually stayed and settled. It happens quite often.


Your guild name suits you.
10/09/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Lëora
10/09/2018 07:20 PMPosted by Ruthus
Calling the Burning of Teldrassil a "genocide" because that word sounded weighty, irrespective of its actual meaning, is a prime example.
We’ve had thousands of threads before this. Blizzard called it that first before the playerbase for once.

As for ‘jumping’ to real life examples. I shouldn’t have to, when there’s already examples in game that already show case what happens when Orcs live by ‘might makes right’ mentalities. I will admit I shouldn’t have but forcefully taking lands and then expecting it to be good deed isn’t the first thing that should come to mind.

If your response is going to be along the lines of Alexander the Great or some other Conquerer, save it. I’ve had to have thousands of conversations like that before and I’m willing to admit I shouldn’t have drawn the real life comparison.


I mean, yeah.. The Burning of Teldrassil is one of the few times Genocide is appropriate. As was mentioned, such an event (just evacuation) would have devastating effects on their culture. The majority of the Night Elf race was on the tree.

The question was even broached of how many Night Elves were even left.

Your guild name suits you.


They aren't wrong, though.

I mean, in the "can't really help it now" part. We can move forward, try and do better in the future, be aware of our past mistakes... But we (the current generation) hold no blame for it. Hold no responsibility for it. The sins of the father do not fall upon the son. And again, the idea of stealing land isn't unique to the anglo-sphere.
10/09/2018 07:20 PMPosted by Ruthus
Perhaps the silliest thing of all is to leap to the real world allegory,


Wow people relate their real lives to the media and culture they consume? Human beings have an interactive relationship with the art they consume and create?! Weird!
10/09/2018 07:29 PMPosted by Savanovic
10/09/2018 07:20 PMPosted by Ruthus
Perhaps the silliest thing of all is to leap to the real world allegory,


Wow people relate their real lives to the media and culture they consume? Human beings have an interactive relationship with the art they consume and create?! Weird!

Are you a survivor of the Trail of Tears? I apologize in advance if I have been insensitive towards you.

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