Misogyny and the treatment of Night Elves

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10/09/2018 09:58 PMPosted by Carmageddon
If you want to actually convince anyone beyond the choir, you'll have to make an actual argument. You know, with premises, evidence, and conclusions and stuff.

Literally I'm sure with the current political climate we're in today Blizzard actually knew this would be brought up and made sure to have our two new established allied kingdoms ruled by women to draw away from that conclusion. Still, you reach it anyways.
Still, you reach it anyways.


I mean, I haven’t actually seen Carm discuss their opinions on this.

Mostly they’ve just insisted that people who obviously don’t think this discussion is worth having should use syllogisms to describe why the conversation isn’t worth having. Which, you know, I think is probably a waste of time?

But still, not the same as actually adopting op’s talking points.
10/09/2018 03:57 AMPosted by Taule
You are reading far too much into this.

It isn't misogynistic, intentional or not. It is incompetent writing and nothing more; if you are finding more it is because you are seeking it and inventing patterns where there are none to support your idea.

But this is an online forum, so I guess more power to you.


Yeah, I agree with this, it's just bad writing. I've called Blizzard out on things, but no their not any SJW topic evil doers.
10/09/2018 10:58 PMPosted by Telysonis
10/09/2018 09:58 PMPosted by Carmageddon
If you want to actually convince anyone beyond the choir, you'll have to make an actual argument. You know, with premises, evidence, and conclusions and stuff.

Literally I'm sure with the current political climate we're in today Blizzard actually knew this would be brought up and made sure to have our two new established allied kingdoms ruled by women to draw away from that conclusion. Still, you reach it anyways.


I think you have me confused with the OP. I actually was originally going to challenge several of the OP's points because I thought her argument, while interesting, was not very strong (in particular her conclusion; how is having a set of amazonian women coopted by an even stronger amazonian woman an example of misogyny, of all things?).

But then I got ticked off by people simply attacking the OP's argument without actually offering anything constructive. Which is unfair, since the OP is being painstakingly thoughtful and polite.

To Feldaran: yeah, I think that if you are going to take part in a discussion you should have something to say. I don't think that is asking too much.
How I feel right now: https://youtu.be/CaWZdDb9mEQ
Blizzard made Garrosh a bad guy and made him stupid and then killed him. They must be misandrists!
10/09/2018 11:27 PMPosted by Carmageddon
I think you have me confused with the OP. I actually was originally going to challenge several of the OP's points because I thought her argument, while interesting, was not very strong (in particular her conclusion; how is having a set of amazonian women coopted by an even stronger amazonian woman an example of misogyny, of all things?).


Thank you, for giving voice to how I've been feeling most of this thread. These are not great arguments. But I don't like the attitudes expressed by those currently dog piling onto the OP to consider joining them.

Oh well, another time and another context, maybe I'll have something to say about how Blizzards portrayal of gender equality is generally very good and the abandonment of the Night Elves rigid gender roles is also a good thing.
Because you are wrong. If Conan Doyle had opted to have Sherlock do those things, then it would have been, by definition, in character. I think we agree that it would have been bad writing, but that would not have made it any less canonical.


Funny enough, not actually the claim I made. I never said Sylvanas thoughts were not canon. I said they arent word of god. I never said she has agency. But that her actions should be consistent.

Suspension of disbelief is a thing.

But this is " Timmy hates lies. Sara lied to timmy. Why is timmy mad at sara" level of crap for character consistency.

And, also, those characters were chosen specifically because more than one person writes them, and not the original creator. Much like with Sylvanas.
10/09/2018 07:22 PMPosted by Ruthus
That said, I don't really see Treng's point either, other than that he wants the Horde to take Ashenvale. He has yet to articulate a coherent argument as to why they are morally entitled to.


Proximity has everything to do with it. If you can't reinforce a land more readily than your enemy can, you are probably going to lose.


Sure I did. Orgrimmar is the most powerful Horde city. It had reinforcements directly from the Goblins and Trolls, as well as the Orcs. It even has a Tauren district with zeppelin towers directly to and from Thunderbluff.

In a wargame, which is what Warcraft is founded on, there is no way that the night elves, even with the draenei's help, can camp right outside of the main city and hold that land. Orgrimmar has more access to forces, siege equipment, stockpiled resources, etc.

Which leads me to the realization that you just didn't read my posts.
10/10/2018 04:45 AMPosted by Treng

there is no way that the night elves, even with the draenei's help, can camp right outside of the main city and hold that land.


Sure there is. It is easily explained by the Horde's strategic stupidity and general incompetence.

Its straight up canon that the Darnassus city guard held off the entirety of the Horde's military for a time with the assistance of Malfurion. Night Elves are just the superior specimen here.
10/10/2018 05:01 AMPosted by Mystaerica
with the assistance of Malfurion
https://i.imgur.com/5HGj1mN.gif
Man I wonder if the single most powerful druid in existence might give the Alliance some sort of enormous nearly insurmountable advantage when fighting in a GIGANTIC FOREST.

Nah.
I have it on good authority that Sylvanas is equally as powerful as Malfurion
10/10/2018 04:45 AMPosted by Treng
can camp right outside of the main city and hold that land. Orgrimmar has more access to forces, siege equipment, stockpiled resources, etc.


They aren't just "camped out". There is an entire region of dense forest the night elves have settled in and developed for thousands of years. If we are going this route one could say there is no way the Horde should have ever been able to successfully stay settled in that land to begin with. The city is in a damn desert. They could have been surrounded, starved out, and destroyed by the people "camping right outside" with naval reinforcements from the Alliance and Theramore. That isn't how the games story was written though, due to, what was that? Oh yeah, "Plot Armor". The Horde needed to exist in the minds of the authors and so this never happened.
10/10/2018 05:34 AMPosted by Savanovic
the Horde should have ever been able to successfully stay settled in that land to begin with.
The Horde had its own Malfurion situation: Demon-Blooded Grom Hellscream.

The Horde was losing. And they would have lost, if not for Demon-Blooded Grom Hellscream and his Demon-Blooded Warsong Clan.

They uprooted the Elven supremecy in Ashenvale and it has never been the same since.
Elves held supremacy over the region until only recently, and even with the destruction of Teldrassil the Horde is only capable of contesting it. And if current trends follow, the Horde will wind up getting pushed out completely by the Nelves alone.
10/10/2018 06:03 AMPosted by Mystaerica
Elves held supremacy over the region until only recently
Due to plot armor. Grom and the Warsong plan uprooted all supremecy the elves had in Ashenvale. After that, there's no way the elves could've held it against three armies (four whence the goblins arrived.)
10/10/2018 06:05 AMPosted by Treng
Due to plot armor.


Due to being the superior fighting force.
While Night Elves have been butchered, this is hardly a case of misogyny. BFA has had more female characters in the spotlight than any other expansion. This is like the worst time to claim misogyny.

In my travels of BFA, so far, I have encountered:
Jaina Proudmoore, the face and representative of the Alliance to Kul Tiras, later becoming Lord-Admiral of Kul Tiras
Katherine Proudmoore, Lord-Admiral of Kul Tiras, widow of Daelin Proudmoore, and mother of Jaina
Lucile Waycrest, heiress to House Waycrest, and ruler of Drustvar
Thalssyra, First-Arcanist and leader of the Nightborne
Tyrande Whisperwind, High-Priestess of Elune, leader of the Night Elves, wife of Malfurion, and adopted mother of Shandris
Shandris Feathermoon, General of the Sentinel Army, and Night Elven representative to the 7th Legion
Talanji, Princess and representative of the Zandalari to the Horde
Sylvanas Windrunner, Banshee-Queen and Warchief of the Horde
Alleria Windrunner, leader of the Void Elves, wife of Turalyon, mother of Arator, eldest sister to Sylvanas and Vereesa, war hero of the Alliance, and a thousand year veteran of the Army of the Light
Queen Azshara, Queen of the Naga, right hand to the Old God, N'zoth, and former Highborne Queen of the Night Elves

And those are just the big ones that we follow or fight, there have been plenty of smaller characters to mention, as well. You got Taelia Fordragon, Priscilla Ashvane, Liadrin, Meredith Waycrest, the entire Coven, the Night Elf Sentinels, Kelsey Steelspark, etc. The list just goes on and on. I dare say that there are potentially more female characters leading WoW's story right now than there are male characters. Hell, even all three Warbringer cinematics were about females.

So yeah, again, BFA is absolutely not a case of misogyny.

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