Real Reason People Whine About Titanforging

General Discussion
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10/19/2018 07:08 AMPosted by Rankin
10/19/2018 06:47 AMPosted by Mob
You didn't address my other issues.

You mentioned having better gear from running Heroic. Was it actually higher item level gear, which seems unlikely for every slot, or was it due to poor scaling of secondary stats and poorly balanced azerite traits?

And even if it was due to having a higher item level, you're much more likely to get a higher wf/tf from doing harder content than from doing lower difficulty content. A Mythic raider will end up with just about every slot being 385+ while someone lower won't be close to that unless they're incredibly lucky.

10/19/2018 06:47 AMPosted by Mob
And while I may be "focusing on a negative aspect" that doesn't mean that there are absolutely no negative aspects. It's there and it has an impact on my enjoyment of the game.

It's purely psychological though. It isn't actually a bad thing, you just think it's a bad thing because you are focusing solely on the negative aspect of not getting a wf/tf upgrade, even though you got the item to drop.

Before: You got an item to drop and that was it.

Now: You get an item to drop, and it has an additional chance to become a better item.

It's a net positive outcome.


For clarification this has nothing to do with the dumpster fire of a system Blizzard calls Azerite. We are only talking about ilvl.

It feels absolutely terrible to down a new boss for the first time and have zero ilvl upgrades drop. This isn't an unlikely scenario if you've spent time progressing through heroic before mythic. Yes, in the long run you'll get better gear. But that doesn't diminish the disappointment of finally killing that new boss and having nothing to show for it. This feeling isn't limited to just Mythic raiding either. It occurs at all levels of character progression.

On your second point- It's purely psychological. It isn't actually a good thing, you just think it's a good thing because you are focusing solely on the positive aspect of getting a wf/tf upgrade, even though your item drop was a base upgrade.

The whole "it's in your head" argument goes both ways.

All this aside, your original argument is that the only people who don't like titanforging were envious. I think that's been disproven.
10/19/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Kegsmash
Titanforging isn’t an issue. It’s the personal epeens being hurt.

My friend who got the heroic ghuun trinket the first week for simply doing 4 mythics. while he won’t even clear normal. Didn’t bother me. I told him wow nice grats. While I scrapped the pants I got that week


Nobody cares what other people get. Titanforging is bad because it's an unsatisfying endless gear grind.
Lottery and gambling sucks.... If I wanted to gamble I'd go to a casino.
10/19/2018 07:35 AMPosted by Ryuk
10/19/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Kegsmash
Titanforging isn’t an issue. It’s the personal epeens being hurt.

My friend who got the heroic ghuun trinket the first week for simply doing 4 mythics. while he won’t even clear normal. Didn’t bother me. I told him wow nice grats. While I scrapped the pants I got that week


Nobody cares what other people get. Titanforging is bad because it's an unsatisfying endless gear grind.


I disagree, I dont feel ANY need or desire or drive to obtain BiS... NONE... Im happy with my toon if I can complete the goal in front of me.

Ilvl, to me, is nothing more than a "ticket" to "new" content. Because WOW presents ZERO ways for other players to effectively judge other players on their SKILL... We are forced to use ilvl as pretty much the sole determining factor and that has made ILVL the gate keeper to certain content. This means that the random TF or WF is helpful to me.

Also, what is gear really? its a direct nerf to the environment for the player. and sometimes its nice for things to be a bit easier... but the rarity of TF does ensure that its just a tiny buff for the players, sometimes... It IS exciting when you get one and sometimes you have that one piece for almost an entire expansion! (depending on when you get it) I just fail to see a problem with this.
Not true at all, I've been unlucky on my main, didn't get many drops until this week, I had been 6/8H for a while. Meanwhile my DH which hadn't killed any heroic bosses & only killed 6 Normal ones was right on my tail, just 2ilvls behind my main (359, 357). It's not like I do a bunch more Mythic+ on that DH either, I think the highest I've done on her was just a 5, I've just gotten so lucky with titanforges & rare drops
Completive or high end guilds have less issue with omg said casual got a TF 385 and I had to run mythic this for it and they got it out simple this, and more to do with the path of gearing (cant think of of a way to call it). Before TF/WF these guilds had a plan laid out to follow said class BiS is this piece in this instance/raid no if and or buts about it Gear A was the BiS for let say your warrior MT. You had a goal or an aim for this or that gear. However gear B is BiS for lets say your pally tank, and gear C is meh base stats. Well gear C dropped it TF and the stats on it is BiS for that warrior but its also an upgrade for that pally well it dropped for the pally but because it TF and with personal loot they cant give it to the warrior then next boss fight well ill be darned the pally BiS just dropped for the pally and so forth.

When you are in completive type guild you are not going into things on whim you know what you need, who needs it and what class its best for you are going in with a goal and idea from the loot table who will need what to get the best gear for each class. TF with the addition of personal loot takes that away. Making it so gearing up your core raid group is luck of the draw and not because you planned and prepared.

If you think top guild A is caring or even making long QQ post about joe the warfront hero getting that the 385TF they don't, because joe the warfront hero has no effect on them. What they are annoyed about is Tom their warrior MT getting shafted because they are getting no personal luck on gear while Billy the plate pally is getting gear he don't need because of secondary stats don't help him but ilvl wise he stuck with it because he cant give it to Tom the tank.
10/18/2018 03:14 PMPosted by Thundris
They are in competitive guilds and they get upset when one of their guildmates gets lucky with better gear and they become enraged with jealousy. They use this cover argument of it being undeserved handouts to casuals as a smoke screen to cover their own jealous shame.

Anyone with half a brain knows that the occasional titanforge that a casual gets wont even place them at a fraction of the gear power level that a hardcore raiders has.
Bingo! was hes name-o!
10/19/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Rankin
10/19/2018 07:00 AMPosted by Yshal
A cap at 385 would just mean a little relief for people doing Mythic Uldir.

If anything, it would make it harder for anyone who hasn't cleared Mythic Uldir yet. At least now they have a chance at getting up to ilevel 400 gear to make the content a little easier.


Blizzard tends to nerf Mythic raids to do that anyways.

Removing WF and TF from Mythic raiding would be amazing.
I'm not in a raiding guild, I'll join a pug every now and then, but I'm not serious by any means. I hate titanforging. I hate that there's no clear sense of progression, and I hate that I can do normal Uldir and outgear it without even stepping a foot in it. I've done Uldir maybe twice so far, only got 1 +10 ilvl upgrade and still somehow outgear it. That should not be the case. Going into a raid and only getting an upgrade if it warforges/titanforges sucks.

And no one who raids Mythic cares if you have titanforged gear. I don't know where you got that from.
Jealousy is the dumbest argument that has ever been presented in opposition of this RNG loot pintata. There needs to be a limit on the titanforging for a variety of reasons that have been stated thoroughly in this thread.

Kudos to this community to be completely honest.
10/19/2018 08:15 AMPosted by Araiel
And no one who raids Mythic cares if you have titanforged gear. I don't know where you got that from.


It's a form of virtue signaling to make legitimate complaints about titanforging appear less valid.

"They're envious of others. They just want to flaunt their e-peen."

It's much easier to write someone off for their perceived greediness than debunk the problems with the titanforging system.
10/19/2018 07:35 AMPosted by Ryuk
10/19/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Kegsmash
Titanforging isn’t an issue. It’s the personal epeens being hurt.

My friend who got the heroic ghuun trinket the first week for simply doing 4 mythics. while he won’t even clear normal. Didn’t bother me. I told him wow nice grats. While I scrapped the pants I got that week


Nobody cares what other people get. Titanforging is bad because it's an unsatisfying endless gear grind.


That's subjective. I think getting all BiS is equally dissatisfying, as you just stop playing at that point, which is what many people did.
I wouldn't mind Titanforging if their was a way to counteract the titanforging... with a way to gurantee titanforged items.
Another possibility as to why it's divisive - some people hate the unexpected and some people love it.
10/19/2018 08:46 AMPosted by Vivian
Another possibility as to why it's divisive - some people hate the unexpected and some people love it.

We could always compromise and bring back the valor point upgrade the system. A warforge/titanforge piece would just be "free" upgrade levels for an item.
I really like the WF/TF system. I don't know if I'm just too casual, but I don't have time for Mythic progression raiding, and I'm not in a guild that raids anything at all. Heroic PUG raids are what I do for enjoyment in WoW. That combined with PUGing fairly high M+ dungeons are how I've geared my characters to this point.

With that said, had WF/TF not been in place, I probably wouldn't have been able to get AOTC, would not enjoy playing nearly as much, and very likely would have lost interest in WoW because I would have hit a personal progression wall with PUGs due to lack of ability to appropriately gear content. Also, it would be difficult to find people qualified to run Heroic PUGs without this system.

I love challenging content, and consider myself far beyond the LFR skill level, but I don't care what drops for people who do it. No matter how you look at it, the higher the skill level of the content, the higher the iLvL required for "non-professional" groups to clear it. Since most of the interested mechanics are not available below Heroic mode, it's important to allow people a way to gear themselves without a reliable raiding guild if they want to be able to experience the real-deal (all mechanics enabled) raid bosses.

My take is that Mythic raiders are just kinda mad about the lack of prestige of their own item level score being higher, when all that should matter is the date on their achievements for clearing exceptionally brutal mythic raid content.

TLDR: WF/TF are good because they lets casual heroic raids get to an acceptable item level to make heroic doable. Trying to be "done" gearing a character with all BIS is stupid since that won't ever happen anyway with the pace that content is released.
10/18/2018 11:43 PMPosted by Edisbelee
Because there is no actual real reason to get rid of the system.


I think there are a number of decent reasons the system should potentially be removed or at the very least re-evaluated.

1) A piece of Raid gear randomly dropping from a Heroic Dungeon boss is not in line with the games natural progression.

2) TF finally pushes randomness concerning loot over the edge, and creates too many permutations for rewards. Getting the item you wanted just to drop is now only the start of things.

3) It isn't healthy for the game when effort doesn't match rewards. Doing a Heroic Dungeon should get you Heroic Dungeon loot as is inline with the set gear progression. Not randomly result in Raid quality loot that goes far beyond the reward curve for the content being done. Likewise, walking out of a guaranteed Warfront win with a 400 is, I say with no ill will, a real and concerning problem the game is currently faced with.

4) It doesn't feel great. TF is like winning the lotto. And it sucks when you see that your already rare winning ticket is for a prize you didn't want in the first place. Seeing the wrong reward TF +20 is like winning the lotto for the wrong prize.
10/19/2018 08:40 AMPosted by Nessfalco
10/19/2018 07:35 AMPosted by Ryuk
...

Nobody cares what other people get. Titanforging is bad because it's an unsatisfying endless gear grind.


That's subjective. I think getting all BiS is equally dissatisfying, as you just stop playing at that point, which is what many people did.

and not being able to ever achieve bis causes some players who like to strive for it to quit because there's no point in playing for that reason anymore.
some people have the need to have BIS evetything. unfortunately for thoose people they must have the titanforge. but it supposed to be a happy bonus not a must.
10/19/2018 07:34 AMPosted by Mob
It feels absolutely terrible to down a new boss for the first time and have zero ilvl upgrades drop.


Welcome to Raiding son.

I've stopped counting the times I killed a new boss and have gotten 0 loot on my first kill.

Bosses don't drop 20 pieces of loot. They drop like 4-5.

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