Tank Design Problem: Talent Diversity

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
This started out as a mini-project to see how diverse the talent rows were of Vengeance DH. After examining all the classes, the problem seems to be deeply systemic, and any talent row that offers no situational diversity, should be looked at by the developers, as an opportunity to improve our classes.

Here is the data:

*This data is pulled from Warcraftlogs.com, aggregate scores from Uldir raids, over the past 2 weeks"*

"In order to be shown in the graph and table below, the talent must have been used in at least 5% of parses. "

Before the data - I want to express that I think TALENT IMBALANCE is a large factor in the slump BFA is having from its playerbase. We have said it time and time again, we would like the classes fixed. This means streamlining rotation, abilities (that were pruned), and perhaps most importantly balancing our talents.

Looking over the tank talents taken below, I thought it was just a Vengeance problem where many of our talent rows only had one viable choice. But seeing the data, many of the classes are in a similar situation. Now granted, none of the tanks are as pigeonholed as Vengeance, whom only has choices in 2/7 of their talent rows currently. But if there is a talent that is being taken 95%+ of the time, the other talents should be buffed to make them at least situationally competitive.

Anyway, here is the talent data I compiled from Warcraft logs.

Vengeance Demon Hunter
Talent Row 1 - Abyssal Strike (95.68%) - Agonizing flames (not shown, less than 5%), Razor Spikes (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 2 - Fallout (92.57%) - Feast of souls (5.86%), Burning Alive (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 3 - Flame Crash (96.17%) - Charred Flesh (not shown, less than 5%), Felblade (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 4 - Fracture (92.49%) - Feed the Demon (6.98%), Soul Rending (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 5 - Sigil of Chains (81.16%) - Concentrated Sigils (12.07%), Quickened Sigils (6.72%)

Talent Row 6 - Spirit Bomb (92.04%) - Gluttony (6.21%), Fel Devestation (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 7 - Last Resort (86.37%) - Soul Barrier (10.54%), Void Reaver (not shown, less than 5%)

As you can see, there is a problem in Vengeance's talent tree, when there are 5/7 rows with over 90% representation. The point of talent trees is to offer flexibility, and diversity to our character. However this is not happening, thus signalling a problem that should be address by class developers.

Here are the other tanks for comparison:

Blood Death Knight
Talent Row 1 - Blood Drinker (74.78%) - Heartbreaker (19.67%), Rune Strike (5.44%)

Talent Row 2 - Hemostasis (98.21%) - Rapid Decomposition (not shown, less than 5%), Consumption (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 3 - Ossuary (89.21%) - Foul Bulwark (5.91), Tombstone(not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 4 - Will of the Necropolis (80.25%) - Rune Tap (16.83%), Anti-Magic Barrier (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 5 - Wraith Walk (46.05%) - Grip of the Dead (42.52%), Tightening Grasp (11.34%)

Talent Row 6 - Blood Worms (98.98%) - Mark of Blood (not shown, less than 5%), Voracious (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 7 - Red Thirst (43.34%) - Purgatory (29.65%), Bonestorm (26.91%)

3/7 talent rows without diversity
Brewmaster Monk
Talent Row 1 - Eye of the Tiger (91.92%) - Chi Burst (6.91%), Chi Wave (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 2 - Chi Torpedo (85.94%) - Tiger's Lust (11.11%), Celerity(not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 3 - Light Brewing (88.53%) - Black Ox Brew (10.51%), Spitfire(not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 4 - Ring of Peace (59.92%) - Black Ox Statue (37.96%), Tiger Tail Sweep (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 5 - Bob and Weave (60.81%) - Dampen Harm (33.92%), Healing Elixir (5.13%)

Talent Row 6 - Rushing Jade Wind (95.58%) - Invoke Nuizao (not shown, less than 5%), Special Delivery (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 7 - High Tolerance (93.24%) - Guard (not shown, less than 5%), Blackout Combo (not shown, less than 5%)

3/7 talent rows without diversity

Protection Paladin

Talent Row 1 - Holy Shield (81.46%) - Blessed Hammer (16.41%), Redoubt(not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 2 - Crusader's Judgement (78.63%) - First Avenger (15.48%), Bastion of Light (5.81%)

Talent Row 3 - Fist of Justice (62.09%) - Blinding Light (22.56%), Repentance (15.28%)

Talent Row 4 - Blessing of Spellwarding (68.84%) - Cavalier (28.88%), Retribution Aura (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 5 - Unbreakable Spirit (42.64%) - Hand of the Protector(30.11%), Final Stand (27.18%)

Talent Row 6 - Judgement of Light (58.56%) - Consecrated Ground (26.76%), Aegis of Light (14.60%)

Talent Row 7 - Righteous Protector (51.00%) - Seraphim (25.00%), Last Defender (23.92%)

0/7 talent rows without diversity

Guardian Druid

Talent Row 1 - Brambles(43.06%) - Blood Frenzy (20.93%), Bristling Fur (35.98%)

Talent Row 2 - Wild Charge (79.58%) - Tiger Dash (13.44%), Intimidating Roar (6.95%)

Talent Row 3 - Restoration Affinity (61.21%) - Feral Affinity (23.24%), Balance Affinity (15.52%)

Talent Row 4 - Typhoon (74.14%) - (6.98%), Mighty Bash (19.21%), Mass Entanglement (6.62%)

Talent Row 5 - Galactic Guardian (63.35%) - Soul of the Forest(22.33%), Guardian of Ursoc (14.28%)

Talent Row 6 - Guardian of Elune (48.78%) - Survival of the Fittest (33.60%), Earthwarden (17.59%)

Talent Row 7 - Rend and Tear (69.29%) - Pulverize (29.81%), Lunar Beam (not shown, less than 5%)

0/7 talent rows without diversity

Protection Warrior

Talent Row 1 - Into the frazy (93.68%) - Impending Victory (not shown, less than 5%), Punish (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 2 - Bounding Stride (58.81%) - Crackling Thunder(38.92%), Safeguard (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 3 - Unstoppable Force (96.84%) - Dragon Roar (not shown, less than 5%), Best Served Cold (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 4 - Bolster (93.30%) - Never Surrender (not shown, less than 5%), Indomitable (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 5 - Rumbling Earth (81.77%) - Storm Bolt (16.48%), Menace (not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 6 - Booming Voice (85.44%) - Devastator (13.18%), Vengeance(not shown, less than 5%)

Talent Row 7 - Anger Management (96.15%) - Heavy Repercussions (not shown, less than 5%), Ravager (not shown, less than 5%)

4/7 talent rows without diversity

TLDR Totals of Problematic Talent Rows, by Tank Class:
Vengeance DH: 5/7
Prot Warrior: 4/7
Blood DK: 3
Brewmaster Monk: 3
Guardian Druid: 0
Protection Paladin: 0
Blizzard seems ignorant (I say that term using the strictest non-derogatory definition) of this issue.

It cannot be seen in damage logs, but all you have to do is look at the talent choices above, or from any WoW log site to see that something is rotten in the state of talent balancing.
Ignorance or Apathy. Honestly, while they say they care, the complete lack of effort over the last couple of expansions leads me more to apathy than ignorance.

Although, I would Hate to say it, why fix it if enough people will play it when its broken.....

I hope they can fix this in the future, but I'm not holding my breath at this point.
Talent diversity is an overlooked issue. People often focus just on DPS or HPS numbers, and yet it is an integral part of class design.

When people complain that BFA class design is the worst it’s ever been in the history of WoW, this would be an opportunity for the developers to show all classes some attention, and improve the classes by buffing underrepresented and unviable talent options.
11/05/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Aethevale
Ignorance or Apathy. Honestly, while they say they care, the complete lack of effort over the last couple of expansions leads me more to apathy than ignorance.

Although, I would Hate to say it, why fix it if enough people will play it when its broken.....

I hope they can fix this in the future, but I'm not holding my breath at this point.


8.1 is a make it or break it patch for many of the player base. Guilds falling apart can be a downward spiral for those that prefer raiding as their end game content.

What WoW really needs in 8.1 (or 8.1.5) is a total talent overhaul balancing pass for every single class in the game. Leave none out, leave none ignored. How hard would it be to tweak the totally under used talents?
11/12/2018 08:37 AMPosted by Bigdiggles
11/05/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Aethevale
Ignorance or Apathy. Honestly, while they say they care, the complete lack of effort over the last couple of expansions leads me more to apathy than ignorance.

Although, I would Hate to say it, why fix it if enough people will play it when its broken.....

I hope they can fix this in the future, but I'm not holding my breath at this point.


8.1 is a make it or break it patch for many of the player base. Guilds falling apart can be a downward spiral for those that prefer raiding as their end game content.

What WoW really needs in 8.1 (or 8.1.5) is a total talent overhaul balancing pass for every single class in the game. Leave none out, leave none ignored. How hard would it be to tweak the totally under used talents?


They don't have the resources to accomplish that, what with so many of the teams working on the mobile transition.
11/12/2018 10:12 AMPosted by Muffinass
[quote="207682507189"]


They don't have the resources to accomplish that, what with so many of the teams working on the mobile transition.


This, also they are just a small indie company, they don't have the resources to hire people who aren't afraid to interact with the community and make the changes needed to quell the anger and frustrations and bring those lost players back. You know, actual class developers.
11/12/2018 08:37 AMPosted by Bigdiggles
How hard would it be to tweak the totally under used talents?


Ask Ion and you might be thinking right, but you really don't.
Adjusting talents is far to difficult of a task

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum