Alliance Saurfang Scenario

Story Forum
11/08/2018 08:28 PMPosted by Sarm
I think I'm getting too personal with this. I just don't like the implication that there should ever be an end-point to her emotional suffering, though. Improve, sure, but never move past it.


Sarm, I actually understand where you are coming from, I truly do. And when it is something that a person feels "makes light" of real life trauma, it makes you actively angry. Anyaceltica made the point (and I agree) that Blizzard's portrayal of PTSD is facile and wrongheaded. I think your issue's with Jaina are similar.

This is the problem with using very personal issues such as these in the stories of characters. Which actually is another wrinkle in my current thought re:Story developments. Essentially EVERY SINGLE narrative decision is a "New Coke" potential event for any segment of the gaming base. I can guarantee that your probably not the only one to feel like you do. And that is OK! I guess, I am trying to help keep people from losing their love for the setting and game is all *shrug*
11/08/2018 07:46 PMPosted by Sarm
11/08/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Saiphas
So... yeah, all that desire to dismantle the Horde was her guilt, regret, feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness from multiple events compounding. She actually got sent to a literal tartarus and was tortured with them, and is now on the road to recovery.


I just watched the scene on youtube, and as someone struggling with those same feelings, I really hate how apparently all it takes is just a few days in memory limbo and now she's going to be all better. I'm actually angrier having watched it.


I mean ... Jaina's been recovering for quite a while. The reconciliation with her mom thing helps (and I believe its been several months since the start of the War), but there is a reason she wasn't really in Legion. Kalec's whole reasoning for not following her after she stormed out of Dalaran was because he knew she needed time for some self-reflection (believing she's be a LOT more stable and balanced upon her return). Hell, even her willingness to approach Kul'Tiras again (despite her deep guilt surrounding her family) shows that progress.

Turns out, if you're not a psychotic nihilist who wants to "End Hope", you have the possibility for self-improvement and change (even if its a long-winding road).
It's kinda funny that hearing "it's okay to feel the way you do" from a stranger on the internet offers more emotional comfort than anything I've gotten from my family in the past month and a half (not that they haven't tried). But thank you for that.

I'm sorry about my posts here. I suppose I shouldn't be as hard on the cutscene as I am. Even if it seems like a watered down version of my own feelings, maybe it's a good thing that something like it is there for people who don't yet feel it to empathize through a fictional character.
It's kinda funny that hearing "it's okay to feel the way you do" from a stranger on the internet offers more emotional comfort than anything I've gotten from my family in the past month and a half (not that they haven't tried). But thank you for that.

I'm sorry about my posts here. I suppose I shouldn't be as hard on the cutscene as I am. Even if it seems like a watered down version of my own feelings, maybe it's a good thing that something like it is there for people who don't yet feel it to empathize through a fictional character.


You are human my dude, even from a stranger, it is OK to be hard on a cutscene for a rising a negative response. It is important to recognize when it is happening, why it is happening, and then try and look at what the writers are intending to convey. But never ever feel regret for how something makes you feel, its important for healing. :)
11/08/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Saiphas
Partly because the Alliance's entire objective is wrapped up in Sylvanas, NOT the Horde writ large. Narratively speaking our beef isn't with you, again.
Speak for yourself. The Horde was complicit in the attack on Ashenvale and Darkshore. Even if they didn't agree with the burning they were fine with everything leading up to it.

Daelin was right. Their kind will never change.
So if I do the Saurfang stuff as Alliance, I don't have to bastardize a Horde Alt with that choice?

The Alliance and Saurfang traitor crew quests will be one in the same?

Fitting.
Jerolan, you noticed I said narratively speaking yes? I was not trying to speak for any player, more what the narrative overall is showing the Alliance's primary objective is. I would never try and assert that it was YOUR personal objective.
11/08/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Saiphas
Jerolan, you noticed I said narratively speaking yes? I was not trying to speak for any player, more what the narrative overall is showing the Alliance's primary objective is. I would never try and assert that it was YOUR personal objective.
I get that. But it just makes it all the more frustrating that the Alliance are just the lawful-goodies that the Horde mockingly calls them out for being. We're really just going to dethrone Sylvanas and call it a good day. Whoo. What high stakes, what investment.
11/08/2018 09:17 PMPosted by Jerolan
11/08/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Saiphas
Jerolan, you noticed I said narratively speaking yes? I was not trying to speak for any player, more what the narrative overall is showing the Alliance's primary objective is. I would never try and assert that it was YOUR personal objective.
I get that. But it just makes it all the more frustrating that the Alliance are just the lawful-goodies that the Horde mockingly calls them out for being. We're really just going to dethrone Sylvanas and call it a good day. Whoo. What high stakes, what investment.


But ANY further change is a practical impossibility. This game is NOT just the Alliance's story. We will never be allowed to go HAM on the Horde just like they will never be allowed to conquer the Alliance wholesale. *Shrug* I've made peace with that. This is a two faction game for better or worse, and I would rather not even have this farce of a faction war for that very reason.
11/08/2018 06:31 PMPosted by Baultenn
“The Alliance will learn of Saurfang's escape from a Horde hero in their midst and try to understand how a prisoner escaped from under their nose.”


How is this supposed to work exactly? Not quite getting how or why a "Horde hero" would be just hanging out with the Alliance.

Is it an actual named NPC, or is it the Horde PC stand-in somehow doing this? If it's the latter, that's extremely stupid.
11/08/2018 09:28 PMPosted by Saiphas
But ANY further change is a practical impossibility. This game is NOT just the Alliance's story. We will never be allowed to go HAM on the Horde just like they will never be allowed to conquer the Alliance wholesale. *Shrug* I've made peace with that. This is a two faction game for better or worse, and I would rather not even have this farce of a faction war for that very reason.
That doesn't mean the Alliance can be satisfied with just that though. The Horde characters are allowed to want the Alliance left in ruins even if the players know it'll never happen, but for some reason Alliance characters that want to destroy the Horde are always bad guys.

How do I spam thinking emojis on these forums?
11/08/2018 07:11 PMPosted by Neridon
I can't imagine the night elves and Kul Tiras will be happy.


Anduin will just wag his finger in their faces and they'll feel terrible for ever doubting his brilliance.
11/08/2018 09:29 PMPosted by Kurogasa
11/08/2018 06:31 PMPosted by Baultenn
“The Alliance will learn of Saurfang's escape from a Horde hero in their midst and try to understand how a prisoner escaped from under their nose.”


How is this supposed to work exactly? Not quite getting how or why a "Horde hero" would be just hanging out with the Alliance.

Is it an actual named NPC, or is it the Horde PC stand-in somehow doing this? If it's the latter, that's extremely stupid.


I'm putting money on Sylvanas getting someone "captured" by the Alliance so she can make sure the other leaders know that Shaw was seen helping Saurfang's escape. Anduin would have to vouch for him not working against them and the other Alliance leaders would find out that Anduin let Saurfang go without talking to them first.

Tyrande already regrets not killing Saurfang, I can't imagine she'd be happy that Anduin just let him go and as soon as he tries that "healing for us and the Horde" nonsense with her she's going to be furious.
11/08/2018 09:29 PMPosted by Kurogasa
11/08/2018 06:31 PMPosted by Baultenn
“The Alliance will learn of Saurfang's escape from a Horde hero in their midst and try to understand how a prisoner escaped from under their nose.”


How is this supposed to work exactly? Not quite getting how or why a "Horde hero" would be just hanging out with the Alliance.

Is it an actual named NPC, or is it the Horde PC stand-in somehow doing this? If it's the latter, that's extremely stupid.

It's confusing, did sylvanas pick up on saurfang being unleashed and leaked the information to trigger the alliance? I can't figure out this either. Maybe baine is seeking to join the alliance, and jaina's mom is going to get killed by derek, then go on a rampage slaughtering tauren who helped derek get home! Then anduin will lecture her about how the tauren were about to join the alliance!
11/08/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Jerolan
11/08/2018 09:28 PMPosted by Saiphas
But ANY further change is a practical impossibility. This game is NOT just the Alliance's story. We will never be allowed to go HAM on the Horde just like they will never be allowed to conquer the Alliance wholesale. *Shrug* I've made peace with that. This is a two faction game for better or worse, and I would rather not even have this farce of a faction war for that very reason.
That doesn't mean the Alliance can be satisfied with just that though. The Horde characters are allowed to want the Alliance left in ruins even if the players know it'll never happen, but for some reason Alliance characters that want to destroy the Horde are always bad guys.

How do I spam thinking emojis on these forums?


Because, not belabor a broken record, Blizzard writes morality plays. Literally they have been doing that since they have written narratives.
I can only hope that the Alliance discovering Saurfang's escape leads to internal conflict. The night elves in particular should perceive the act of releasing Saurfang as a great betrayal, should they discover Anduin's involvement.

The High King does not wield unilateral authority within the Alliance. Saurfang was not merely a soldier, but the High Overlord of Orgrimmar. He orchestrated the entire invasion of Ashenvale and Darkshore. For Anduin, without any discussion with or consideration for his allies, to simply release such an important prisoner of war is outrageous.

There should have always been a stark divide in culture and attitude between the night elves and the Alliance of the Eastern Kingdoms. I want incidents like this to make that all the more evident and to instill a palpable schism of trust.
Actually, this is getting even more convoluted now...

For a "Horde Hero" to know, and not be Zek'Han, it requires a stand-in for the Horde PC to either willingly talk to the Alliance (why...) or for this person to have talked with another hero who's talking with the Alliance. It also raises the question of if Sylvanas knows this or not (but, the more people involved, the more likely she does; also, the ranger may have sent a report back anyway before confronting Saurfang). Furthermore, it raises the question of if the Horde PC now has a cannon choice (either reporting to Sylvanas first, or helping Zek'Han).
Finally, it raises the question of who the Alliance PC ends the quest at, since someone has to give them an azerite chunk and if they're effectively sabotaging efforts at this point in time. Basically, if you tell Tyrande, is she going to try and kill Saurfang out of revenge, and thus help Sylvanas? Do you confront Anduin or Shaw about it? What does that accomplish exactly?

This is dumb, and I have a feeling that the least stupid answer is Baine being the one to go to the Alliance about all of this (because at this point why not). I also hate that somehow the Alliance version may well imply what the Horde version canonically did (thus potentially invalidating the choice).

(And I do hope it's not a Horde PC standin - there's something very wrong with the story when it's cannon that the Horde PC is openly helping the Alliance PC learn about internal faction affairs.)
Could it be Valeera Sanguinar?

Don’t think she should count as a Horde Hero but that’s my best guess at this moment. Though she’s supposed to be loyal to the Wrynns. Maybe it accidentally slips or she does a “I must protect you from yourself” bit which will ultimately end with Anduin being validated and finger wagging everybody.
This proves that Saurfang and his band of traitors are working with the alliance.
11/08/2018 11:05 PMPosted by Rhuna
Could it be Valeera Sanguinar?

Don’t think she should count as a Horde Hero but that’s my best guess at this moment. Though she’s supposed to be loyal to the Wrynns. Maybe it accidentally slips or she does a “I must protect you from yourself” bit which will ultimately end with Anduin being validated and finger wagging everybody.


Valeera's supposed to be Alliance (though they did screw up and have her on the Horde Blimp in Silithus for the sword event).

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