The Night Elves Lose in Anduin's Peace

Story Forum
11/09/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
She was the one who decided to build a nation in the middle of the Horde territory, without even the most basic fortifications, such as "walls".


hold on there, are you talking about teldrassil? horde territory?
dahell?
11/09/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Etheldald
11/09/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
She was the one who decided to build a nation in the middle of the Horde territory, without even the most basic fortifications, such as "walls".


hold on there, are you talking about teldrassil? horde territory?
dahell?


Horde own the entire continent, all the rest of the alliance are in the Eastern Kingdoms. This shouldn't be that hard to follow.
11/09/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
11/09/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Etheldald
...

hold on there, are you talking about teldrassil? horde territory?
dahell?


Horde own the entire continent, all the rest of the alliance are in the Eastern Kingdoms. This shouldn't be that hard to follow.


Yes it is. Because what you said makes no sense. It was not Horde territory. Or are Silvermoon and Quel'thalas Alliance territory now since it's in the Eastern Kingdoms?
11/09/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
Horde own the entire continent, all the rest of the alliance are in the Eastern Kingdoms. This shouldn't be that hard to follow.


kalimdor belongs to the nelfs.
and they still have a lot of bases there.

but i think that you are just a troll so,meh.
Yes. This is true.
11/09/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
Horde own the entire continent, all the rest of the alliance are in the Eastern Kingdoms. This shouldn't be that hard to follow.

Night Elves have owned Kalimdor for 10,000 years before Kil'jaedan even formed the first iteration of the Horde. And even when the Horde settled on Kalimdor, they got the dried out bits the Night Elves didn't really care about.

The Horde does not own the entire continent (the Ramkahen would like a word with you), and the only ones with a reasonable claim to parts of it are the Tauren.
11/09/2018 11:24 AMPosted by Jerolan
11/09/2018 11:19 AMPosted by Drahliana
Because I couldn't change back after I posted it. And again the Wild Gods don't work that way any more than your cat comes to you because you called it. They don't take pledges, they don't make deals, they act as a reactive force, not an active one. And some of the Wild Gods like Ursoc and Ursol, are still dead or completely out of the game.
No no, your Horde main. Bring them out.


Alliance players can have different opinions and still be Alliance. Shocker, I know.
11/09/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Tyralone
War of Thorns should never had gone as badly as it did for the Night Elves.

Draenei should've counterattacked like this:
they couldn't their resources were depleted, only the lightforged can do anything
11/09/2018 11:13 AMPosted by Jerolan

Why are you posting this on your alt?


Why does it matter what people post on? You think the "Mag'har Orc" just above him really mains Horde?

The argument is all that matters, not the toon being used to post.
11/09/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Galenorn
11/09/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
Horde own the entire continent, all the rest of the alliance are in the Eastern Kingdoms. This shouldn't be that hard to follow.

Night Elves have owned Kalimdor for 10,000 years before Kil'jaedan even formed the first iteration of the Horde. And even when the Horde settled on Kalimdor, they got the dried out bits the Night Elves didn't really care about.

The Horde does not own the entire continent (the Ramkahen would like a word with you), and the only ones with a reasonable claim to parts of it are the Tauren.


Poster is probably referring to the devs showing a world poster that had a full red Kalimdor and a full blue East Continent.
11/09/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Galenorn
11/09/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
Horde own the entire continent, all the rest of the alliance are in the Eastern Kingdoms. This shouldn't be that hard to follow.

Night Elves have owned Kalimdor for 10,000 years before Kil'jaedan even formed the first iteration of the Horde. And even when the Horde settled on Kalimdor, they got the dried out bits the Night Elves didn't really care about.

The Horde does not own the entire continent (the Ramkahen would like a word with you), and the only ones with a reasonable claim to parts of it are the Tauren.


Darnasus was the only major city in Kalimdor once Theramore was destroyed. Horde owned most zones, just like Alliance owns most zones in Eastern Kingdoms.

My entire point was that being the only Alliance kingdom left over there, you think they would've fortified their nation so that they couldn't be easily invaded once all the outside threats (Legion/Old Gods/etc.) were dealt with. They should've allowed the Allies from the Eastern Kingdoms to check out Silithus and kept soldiers to protect their kingdom, or at least enough to buy time for help to arrive.

But I digress, crappy writing is crappy writing. Just like my point that this whole "Tyrande vs Anduin" is a hamfisted mess, but it completely went over everyone's head here.
The night elves lose just for being on the Alliance. They have always lost for just being on the Alliance. They have gotten nothing good out of it.
11/09/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Withpuppys
11/09/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Tyralone
War of Thorns should never had gone as badly as it did for the Night Elves.

Draenei should've counterattacked like this:
they couldn't their resources were depleted, only the lightforged can do anything


And like the Void Elves, the Lightforged aren't a nation of their own but a small elite unit.
11/09/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Withpuppys
11/09/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Tyralone
War of Thorns should never had gone as badly as it did for the Night Elves.

Draenei should've counterattacked like this:
they couldn't their resources were depleted, only the lightforged can do anything


Meanwhile, both Horde and Alliance can lose thousands of soldiers each expansion but still have enough leftover to wage war against each other.
11/09/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Lena
The night elves lose just for being on the Alliance. They have always lost for just being on the Alliance. They have gotten nothing good out of it.


I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Their main concern was/is the preservation of their homeland. If they'd remained neutral back in the era of vanilla, the Warsong would have eventually dragged the Horde into rolling over them completely. Being part of the Alliance kept that to skirmishing rather than warfare.

When open war did come around, it was an extension of those earlier desires by the orcs. Garrosh wanted everything for his people, and Ashenvale represented that everything. When he attacked, the Alliance went to bat for the Night Elves. Varian, stepped up, and even neutral-happy Jaina dragged Theramore into it. They built a supply chain that stretched the conflict across the entirety of Kalimdor and linked Theramore to Ashenvale, and bisected the Horde at the Barrens.

Up until now I'd say things have been mutually beneficial.
11/09/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Lena
The night elves lose just for being on the Alliance. They have always lost for just being on the Alliance. They have gotten nothing good out of it.


The NEs joined the Alliance to serve as a deterrent to the Horde who were harvesting their trees. They were already in conflict with the Horde, with or without the Alliance. in Cata when Garrosh became a genuine threat, the tragedies of both Taraujo AND Theramore were largely due to the Alliance's desperate attempts to create a second front AND create an overland supply route to relieve pressure on the NE's (because Garrosh wanted them off Kalimdor).

Furthermore, we have "the War of Thornes", and if you think that the Horde getting total access to the Azerite of Silithus was any better for the NE's independently, as it was for the Alliance ... you're kidding yourself. We Horde (due to our explosive technological and tactical advancements over the last decade) were becoming increasingly difficult for the largely stagnant NE civilization to handle, and Azerite would have (and has) allowed us to enhance that process.

Bluntly, when it comes to the faction conflict (not world ending events) the Alliance has actually fought far more for on behalf of the NEs then vice versa. They brought the Alliance into their conflict with the Horde on Kalimdor, the races of EK have surprisingly few assets on that continent to fight the Horde over otherwise. I suppose the same could be said for the Forsaken on EK.
11/09/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
She was the one who decided to build a nation in the middle of the Horde territory, without even the most basic fortifications, such as "walls".

The Night Elves were already living there. The Horde landed on Kalimdor after the Third war and settled a camp in Ashenvale, later moving to Durotar to build the Orc capital.

Recall the movie Avatar.
Night Elves = Na'vi
Orcs = Humans

In fact, really similar story arc. Big tree and everything.
11/09/2018 08:34 AMPosted by Vesran
I'm going to start this one off by saying I sympathize with Anduin. As an Alliance player, I know the limitations of the universe and can say with surety that his idea to break out Saurfang, retread the Horde rebellion storyline, and oust Sylvanas is probably the most efficient and effective way of putting an end to her, and this whole nightmare of a faction war storyline.

The thing though, is that this really doesn't do a thing for the Night Elves. This fight started as a defeat for them, and it's going to end as a single massive tragedy, with only some cosmetic retribution. They've been here before. The last war started with Garrosh going after Ashenvale, and while it ended with the night elves having held the line with the help of a continental effort that was based largely out of Theramore, by the end of the war Theramore was gone, and the only thing that replaced it was a flimsy peace arrangement.

This whole experience has taught them that if they stick their necks out for the Alliance, like they did in the Silithus operation, they expose themselves to being completely wiped out by the Horde. Should the war end in the way Anduin has planned, with a Horde civil war, Sylvanas being killed, and a peace forged, the restored Night Elf territory would be completely exposed. They'd be weaker than they'd ever been, right next to the Horde's capital, with their allies far away and largely unwilling to fully commit to a full-scale war unless it's forced upon them.

So lets see. They're weaker than ever, their allies are farther away than ever, and more reluctant than ever, and with their presence in the northern Eastern Kingdoms heavily diminished you can bet the Horde would be looking to secure Kalimdor on the down-low. This has the makings of a perpetual low-key conflict where the orcs resume their operations and slowly push the Night Elves right off of Kalimdor.

The Night Elves didn't gain any security from the last war. They're not going to gain anything from Anduin's planned resolution either. The Horde is now responsible for the single greatest greatest tragedy in their history since the Sundering. The architect of that campaign is being freed, and is going to be leading the Horde rebellion, and no matter what was said about honor, the only difference between Saurfang and Sylvanas is that he didn't want to burn down Teldrassil. He's still a 'manifest destiny' sort of orc when it comes to Ashenvale, and would happily push the Night Elves into the sea.

Peace makes sense to Anduin. Spare lives, rebuild, prepare for what will inevitably come next. To the Night Elves, this calculation is flawed. Spare ten lives today, lose a hundred tomorrow. That's the lesson they've learned out of all this. Their only hopes for long-term survival, as it's now a basic assumption that there's going to be another war, Varian's threat was hollow, as will be Anduin's, are to become a refugee population in the Eastern Kingdoms and try to rebuild there, or to go all-in on the Kalimdor front and find an atrocity to inflict on the Horde that will weaken them for the effective future, or at least commit the Alliance completely to doing so. Their homeland rests on the scales being balanced by the end of this, not in a peace that effectively hangs them out to dry.


So what? Does it always have to work out 100% of the time or do you just not like anything remotely interesting?

I really hate this "it's convenient for me" type crap I read on here. It's completely ok that blizzard destroyed the Horde (at least the Orcs) but it's not ok that the night elves might actually have to deal with a major problem.

oh no, they might actually have some character development, better make sure everyone wins 100% of the time -- except the faction I don't like because i need to feel better about myself.
11/09/2018 04:39 PMPosted by Torg
but it's not ok that the night elves might actually have to deal with a major problem.


You call the near genocide of their race a "major problem?" I'd call that catastrophic. The only reason they're going to bounce back from it is because Blizzard's writing is going to say they still have the numbers to be killed in droves when the Horde needs an enemy to fight. Frankly if they don't call Anduin out on his bs I'm going to be pissed off it just gets swept under the run and the Horde don't pay for what they did.
That’s something I’ve already come to terms with. It’s why I make attempts to enjoy this ‘middle part’ before we get to the end goal of BfA, whatever it may be.

This is one of the expansions that the middle is going to be vastly more enjoyable than the conclusion that they’re going to come up with.

Not that I’m saying the middle part is any good but I’m positive it’ll be better than seeing the conclusion of the faction war expac.

Edit; Well... Making attempts to enjoy it, despite my harsh criticism.

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