The Night Elves Lose in Anduin's Peace

Story Forum
11/09/2018 04:43 PMPosted by Galenar
11/09/2018 04:39 PMPosted by Torg
but it's not ok that the night elves might actually have to deal with a major problem.


You call the near genocide of their race a "major problem?" I'd call that catastrophic. The only reason they're going to bounce back from it is because Blizzard's writing is going to say they still have the numbers to be killed in droves when the Horde needs an enemy to fight. Frankly if they don't call Anduin out on his bs I'm going to be pissed off it just gets swept under the run and the Horde don't pay for what they did.


PC races that have gone through near extinction level events in the last 34 years:

- Humans: to the Scourge, immediately after the First and Second Wars.
- Gnomes: 90 percent of their population was lost in Gnomergon.
- Draenei: Argus ... followed by Draenor.
- Worgen: The Fall of Gilneas. The only reason the civilian casualty rate wasn't WORSE was because the Forsaken were not aware of the evacuation method.
- Durotar Orcs: The destruction of Draenor by Ner'Zhul and Human Camps.
- Tauren: Nearly pushed to extinction by the Centaur.
- Darkspear: Pushed out of EK, lost their home on the Echo Isles, then butchered wholesale under Garrosh. These guys have gotten their asses kicked.
- Sindorei: The Fall of Quel'thalas as well as the betrayal of Keal'thas.
- Bilgewater: Population was utterly decimated in the destruction of Kazan.
- AU Mag'har: Lost their home and much of their people to "The Draenei Inquisition" of Yrel's Light Fanatics.

Just so happens that its the NEs going through this cycle atm.
11/09/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Droité
PC races that have gone through near extinction level events in the last 34 years:- Humans: to the Scourge, immediately after the First and Second Wars.- Gnomes: 90 percent of their population was lost in Gnomergon. - Draenei: Argus ... followed by Draenor.- Worgen: The Fall of Gilneas. The only reason the civilian casualty rate wasn't WORSE was because the Forsaken were not aware of the evacuation method.- Durotar Orcs: The destruction of Draenor by Ner'Zhul and Human Camps.- Tauren: Nearly pushed to extinction by the Centaur.- Darkspear: Pushed out of EK, lost their home on the Echo Isles, then butchered wholesale under Garrosh. These guys have gotten their asses kicked.- Sindorei: The Fall of Quel'thalas as well as the betrayal of Keal'thas.- Bilgewater: Population was utterly decimated in the destruction of Kazan.- AU Mag'har: Lost their home and much of their people to "The Draenei Inquisition" of Yrel's Light Fanatics.Just so happens that its the NEs going through this cycle atm.


Did we not make as many of those examples that we could pay for their crimes? Except Yrel and maybe the centaur? Do they fight back against them in Tauren zone questing?
11/09/2018 05:04 PMPosted by Galenar
Did we not make as many of those examples that we could pay for their crimes? Except Yrel and maybe the centaur? Do they fight back against them in Tauren zone questing?


Yeah, for some of them. There is a matter of timetables however.

- Humans: Yes. Arthas was a suppose the badguy of their campaign, so WotLK.
- Gnomes: No. Gnomergon is still a radioactive Pet Dungeon and Thermaplugg is still canonically alive ... go figure.
- Draenei: Yes. Congrats, they got revenge ... in expansion 6.
- Worgen: No. In a very similar boat to the NEs atm. Sylvie is their doomsday, still waiting on that revenge.
- Durotar Orcs: Yes. Shadow council is dead, twice now ... so they good.
- Tauren: Yes. They're not really the vengeance sort, but weirdly don't have a lot of Centaur based questlines?
- Darkspear: Yes. Twice in a row ... they lost a LOT. They may still have a beef with the Naga though.
- Sin'dorei: Yes. Arthas as well, and Keal'thas. They're 2 for 2.
- Bilgewater: No. We're led by the harbinger of our destruction ... and we have no hope in sight of getting rid of him. :D
- AU Mag'har: No. Yrel, so that's a big NOPE for them.

There are quite a few PC Races that haven't gotten to have pay-back.
11/09/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Droité
Just so happens that its the NEs going through this cycle atm.
Technically this is their second time through the cycle.

The Highborne allowed their Demon buddies to go into the Lowborne’s(The Kaldorei we know now) districts/areas and happily butcher them.

Not to mention the world breaking explosion that most likely also killed tons of Kaldorei, least the ones that weren’t with Azshara or Suramar.
The truest victory, my son, is stirring the hearts of your people. - Terenas Menethil II

By that definition we've had moderate success! The tragedy of the Kal'dorei has so moved the average Alliance citizen. Asking for anything more is avarice.
11/09/2018 05:19 PMPosted by Droité
- Gnomes: No. Gnomergon is still a radioactive Pet Dungeon and Thermaplugg is still canonically alive ... go figure.


Huh I thought you killed him in the dungeon for real this time after he re-irradiated the place.
11/09/2018 04:43 PMPosted by Galenar
11/09/2018 04:39 PMPosted by Torg
but it's not ok that the night elves might actually have to deal with a major problem.


You call the near genocide of their race a "major problem?" I'd call that catastrophic. The only reason they're going to bounce back from it is because Blizzard's writing is going to say they still have the numbers to be killed in droves when the Horde needs an enemy to fight. Frankly if they don't call Anduin out on his bs I'm going to be pissed off it just gets swept under the run and the Horde don't pay for what they did.


If the Kaldorei don't call Anduin out on his bs, I'm going to be done with WoW and Blizzard.
11/09/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Murdra
You know how Horde players get to choose between Saurfang and Sylvanas? Alliance players should get a similar choice between Tyrande and Anduin.


That would mean writing actual depth in the alliance narrative. Can't have that.

11/09/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Rilyanna
<span class="truncated">...</span>

You call the near genocide of their race a "major problem?" I'd call that catastrophic. The only reason they're going to bounce back from it is because Blizzard's writing is going to say they still have the numbers to be killed in droves when the Horde needs an enemy to fight. Frankly if they don't call Anduin out on his bs I'm going to be pissed off it just gets swept under the run and the Horde don't pay for what they did.


If the Kaldorei don't call Anduin out on his bs, I'm going to be done with WoW and Blizzard.


If you think the narrative won't magically warp itself in order for Anduin to be right, I've got some bad news for you...
11/09/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Shadestalkër
11/09/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Galenorn
...
Night Elves have owned Kalimdor for 10,000 years before Kil'jaedan even formed the first iteration of the Horde. And even when the Horde settled on Kalimdor, they got the dried out bits the Night Elves didn't really care about.

The Horde does not own the entire continent (the Ramkahen would like a word with you), and the only ones with a reasonable claim to parts of it are the Tauren.


Darnasus was the only major city in Kalimdor once Theramore was destroyed. Horde owned most zones, just like Alliance owns most zones in Eastern Kingdoms.

My entire point was that being the only Alliance kingdom left over there, you think they would've fortified their nation so that they couldn't be easily invaded once all the outside threats (Legion/Old Gods/etc.) were dealt with. They should've allowed the Allies from the Eastern Kingdoms to check out Silithus and kept soldiers to protect their kingdom, or at least enough to buy time for help to arrive.

But I digress, crappy writing is crappy writing. Just like my point that this whole "Tyrande vs Anduin" is a hamfisted mess, but it completely went over everyone's head here.


Its not really crappy writing, and it makes me sad to see such a reasonable post by an OP be infected by people who just wanna complain and add nothing to the conversation.

At anyrate: The Kaldorei had a fortified border....It's the forest itself and the myriad of creatures and magic that would defend it . It worked against the Horde twice before, both times reclaiming nearly all if not all of the lost territory. Why would a wall need to be built? Not to mention the Horde and Alliance had a strong peace treaty that lasted up into Legion...which the Kaldorei were fairly busy dealing with.

Now, sending their whole army to Silithus wasnt the greatest of ideas, but it wasn't without merit. Firstly, the EK Alliance did not have a fleet capable of transporting armies. Secondly, The Horde was by all accounts marching to Silithus immediately...Even if Stormwind had the ships it would not have been able to reach there before the Horde.

The Kaldorei were the only ones who were close enough, powerful enough, and had the means to transport enough soldiers to contest the Azerite in Silithus. Considering as well that they would be facing the might of the Kalimdor Horde, it's not a mystery why they devoted such a large portion of their army to the effort.

It's not bad writing: It's a strategic error.

And even if it were bad writing, your complaining won't fix it and it's just more toxicity to this forum.
11/09/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Demontê
The Kaldorei were the only ones who were close enough, powerful enough, and had the means to transport enough soldiers to contest the Azerite in Silithus. Considering as well that they would be facing the might of the Kalimdor Horde, it's not a mystery why they devoted such a large portion of their army to the effort.

It's not bad writing: It's a strategic error.


The problem was not with the strategic error of the Kaldorei's forces. The problem is that the Kaldorei were not alone out there in Northern Kalimdor, but were treated as such for fitting the Horde's story.

The Draenei were RIGHT NEXT DOOR in the Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles and could've came to rescue alongside their Lightforged brethren from space.

Also, Hyjal is Cenarius's home and he and the Wilds Gods in the Emerald Dream could've easily came to the Night Elves aid, their millenia long friends, seeing Hyjal being RIGHT NEXT DOOR to Orgrimmar they would be ever vigilant against more Horde aggression upon Ashenvale once again.
This was never going to end in a satisfying way for night elves, unfortunately, just like MoP didn't end in a satisfying way for them. The moment I learned that Teldrassil was going to be burned, I hoped it wouldn't be due to the faction war and was a different party. And then when we actually did learn it was in fact the Horde that did it, I knew BfA would end for night elves the same way WoD did for draenei.

That said, BfA is even worse for nelves than WoD was for draenei because this isn't an AU, and night elves certainly won't be getting a Legion to get some real retribution. Draenei had their capital attacked and burned, the Naaru that had been sitting in the city for over ten years killed, yes, but because it was an NPC foe, they were able to see that enemy taken down and destroyed. They were able to see their racial leader deliver the coup de grace on Kil'jaeden, and then got to ride a functional ship with a "Doesn't Brake 4 Dreadlords" bumper sticker to finish the fight.

Night elves won't get that. Lorewise, they gave up Azshara and Stonetalon to the Horde, and less than four years later the War of Thorns happens. The Horde reasoning went from "we need resources" to "we need to get you before you get us" when they actually got those resources and lumber. And the writers can't give night elves retribution in the same way as they did the draenei, because it's a player faction that did what it did.

To add insult to injury, this expansion is literally the last time night elves will have a chance to be relevant. Azshara is dying in BfA, the last of the night elf villains. If Blizzard actually gives the night elves a part in that story and doesn't let the Kul Tirans have it all to themselves, then that's it for lore relevant antagonists that night elves have... except for the Horde itself. And since the faction war is "ending" in BfA as well... not looking good.
Though to add to the OP I will say:
1: I owe you an apology for derailing. You post just made me mad enough to be rude and derail the thread.

2: That it is likely that the Night Elves are doomed will go extinct in 200 years or less. Anduin's peace will change nothing. Nothing can undo the Teldrassil genocide, it is done.

Additionally there is talk about giving the orcs of Orgrimmar an Iron Horde tech boost: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769578251?page=1

So between those I dare say that unless the Alliance is willing to commit the bulk of it's forces to protect against the Horde at the expense of leaving their Eastern Kingdoms holdings extremely vulnerable instead the Kaldorei are doomed.

For what it is worth I am hoping that soon after the next expansion is done with killing psycho Sylvie we might get an expansion that will bring us back in time to the height of the Kaldorei Empire and we will go and play all the areas of that time period, not just Night Elf areas.

Maybe going back in time to then might have them bring Kaldorei refugees into our timeline and that population replenishment would undo the damage done by psycho Sylvie at Teldrassil and save the Kaldorei. Just cross your fingers for this along with me.
11/09/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Droité
in Cata when Garrosh became a genuine threat, the tragedies of both Taraujo AND Theramore were largely due to the Alliance's desperate attempts to create a second front AND create an overland supply route to relieve pressure on the NE's (because Garrosh wanted them off Kalimdor).


Who started that war again? Oh right, the humans did. Night elves got dragged into the war by the humans.

This is like if you lit my house on fire and then came in and got me out. Sure, you saved me from the fire, but you also started it.

11/09/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Droité
Furthermore, we have "the War of Thornes", and if you think that the Horde getting total access to the Azerite of Silithus was any better for the NE's independently, as it was for the Alliance ... you're kidding yourself.


lolazerite

11/09/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Droité
Bluntly, when it comes to the faction conflict (not world ending events) the Alliance has actually fought far more for on behalf of the NEs then vice versa. They brought the Alliance into their conflict with the Horde on Kalimdor, the races of EK have surprisingly few assets on that continent to fight the Horde over otherwise. I suppose the same could be said for the Forsaken on EK.


The humans started the Cata war with the Horde and dragged the night elves into it. Not the other way around.
It's as simple as this.

If you're not a human, you lose by default and wait for the humans to do the work for you. Think of humans of the Alliance as Goku, and any other race being the weak supporting cast. (Night Elves being Yamcha.)
11/10/2018 04:11 AMPosted by Kinria
If you're not a human, you lose by default and wait for the humans to do the work for you. Think of humans of the Alliance as Goku, and any other race being the weak supporting cast. (Night Elves being Yamcha.)


lmao and where the humans actually winned in the faction war that is not 8.1?
11/09/2018 05:30 PMPosted by Lëora
11/09/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Droité
Just so happens that its the NEs going through this cycle atm.
Technically this is their second time through the cycle.

The Highborne allowed their Demon buddies to go into the Lowborne’s(The Kaldorei we know now) districts/areas and happily butcher them.

Not to mention the world breaking explosion that most likely also killed tons of Kaldorei, least the ones that weren’t with Azshara or Suramar.

Also, the original narration in Vanilla for new Night Elf players implies that they took major losses in the Third War. "As one of the few Night Elves left in the world..."
11/10/2018 12:00 AMPosted by Lena
11/09/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Droité
in Cata when Garrosh became a genuine threat, the tragedies of both Taraujo AND Theramore were largely due to the Alliance's desperate attempts to create a second front AND create an overland supply route to relieve pressure on the NE's (because Garrosh wanted them off Kalimdor).


Who started that war again? Oh right, the humans did. Night elves got dragged into the war by the humans.

This is like if you lit my house on fire and then came in and got me out. Sure, you saved me from the fire, but you also started it.

11/09/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Droité
Furthermore, we have "the War of Thornes", and if you think that the Horde getting total access to the Azerite of Silithus was any better for the NE's independently, as it was for the Alliance ... you're kidding yourself.


lolazerite

11/09/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Droité
Bluntly, when it comes to the faction conflict (not world ending events) the Alliance has actually fought far more for on behalf of the NEs then vice versa. They brought the Alliance into their conflict with the Horde on Kalimdor, the races of EK have surprisingly few assets on that continent to fight the Horde over otherwise. I suppose the same could be said for the Forsaken on EK.


The humans started the Cata war with the Horde and dragged the night elves into it. Not the other way around.


NO! The Horde under Garrosh would have went to war with the NEs REGARDLESS of their affiliation with the Alliance. His goal was to make a Horde controlled Kalimdor, and there are shockingly very few Humans on that continent; with Theramore being the sole main exception before MoP.

!@#$, his plan for the Forsaken was essentially to throw them into a meatgrinder on EK to weaken them and distract the Alliance enough on EK to keep them from fully investing in supporting the NEs in Kalimdor. He had no real interests in EK, what he wanted where the resource heavy NE lands.

You do understand that it didn't matter if they were Alliance or not, he would have attacked them right? You do understand that the NE's had been a thorn in the Horde's attempts to procure resources to grow since its creation, don't you? No, I suppose you don't. Anything to make Humans the Villains.
11/09/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Tyralone
11/09/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Demontê
The Kaldorei were the only ones who were close enough, powerful enough, and had the means to transport enough soldiers to contest the Azerite in Silithus. Considering as well that they would be facing the might of the Kalimdor Horde, it's not a mystery why they devoted such a large portion of their army to the effort.

It's not bad writing: It's a strategic error.


The problem was not with the strategic error of the Kaldorei's forces. The problem is that the Kaldorei were not alone out there in Northern Kalimdor, but were treated as such for fitting the Horde's story.

The Draenei were RIGHT NEXT DOOR in the Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles and could've came to rescue alongside their Lightforged brethren from space.

Also, Hyjal is Cenarius's home and he and the Wilds Gods in the Emerald Dream could've easily came to the Night Elves aid, their millenia long friends, seeing Hyjal being RIGHT NEXT DOOR to Orgrimmar they would be ever vigilant against more Horde aggression upon Ashenvale once again.


The Draenei themselves are barely re-covering from a devastating assault on the Exodar and their pound for pound great effort they put into fighting the Legion. The Draenei, as a nation, were in no position to swing the battle or aid the Kaldorei. It's reasonable to assume that the Draenei sent some of their fighters and healers to the front, but it is unrealistic that they would create a significant difference.

As for the Lightsworn, I don't believe they had canonically joined the Alliance yet. I could be wrong on this.

As for Cenarus and the other wild gods, they should have been included but it's reasonable to assume that the fight against the Legion left they weakened, and that the lightning quick Horde invasion (Comprised of the whole of the Kalimdor Horde) simply didn't leave them time to travel from Hyjal to Ashenvale. As well, the Horde and the Alliance maintained a peace treaty after Garrosh.

It's not that I don't understand why people are complaining about the lack of Draenei, but it's completely reasonable they are not being used for massive military action.

On the note of the Wild Gods, I more or less agree with you that they should have either showed up or at least be given a reason they didn't.

Ultimately I will defend War of Thorns as a compelling Kaldorei story with a great, Red-Wedding esque conculsion. As well it is a great show of Kaldorei ability...The city guard of Darnassus, a force of about 2000, outnumbered exponentially, managed to turn a blitzkrieg into a quadmire.
11/10/2018 04:11 AMPosted by Kinria
(Night Elves being Yamcha.)
Why can't we at least be Tien?
11/10/2018 11:13 AMPosted by Jerolan
11/10/2018 04:11 AMPosted by Kinria
(Night Elves being Yamcha.)
Why can't we at least be Tien?


Tien are the Draenei. Decent, but background characters.

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