Are Ele Shammans THAT bad?

Shaman
Gotta say, I have been working on getting my shaman to 120 this week. Mainly enhance, I've felt like a boss the whole time killing things in 3-4 hits sometimes. Just got bored and switched to ele....WTF. Its like throwing marshmallows.
They aren't that bad. Vs a melee you'll probably get rekt 1v1.

In bgs ele is actually quite good. Damage is a bit meh, but there is some decent utility.
Thunderstorm and lasso are very good moves when used correctly. As is cap totem.

Try running these pvp talents:
lasso, traveling storms & skyfury totem.

I try play as an offensive support. Peeling and dishing damage where I can. Thunderstorm & skyfury are great for capping flags.
11/11/2018 02:34 PMPosted by Freelora
If only there was a site that collected data on which classes were performing well.

Heroic uldir: ele sham 23 out of 24
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#difficulty=4

mythic uldir: ele sham 21 out of 24
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19

Not everyone has a 370 ilvl raid willing to carry their 345 ilvl ele shaman through heroic uldir, So you can turret dummy the bosses for cheesy ilvl parses on farm bosses.

So you basically admit you haven't played ele all expansion, get carried through heroic uldir by your friends, and then head to the forums with you expert opinion.

Very useful information.

Sorry, did you just say I'm getting "carried" while parsing at high percentiles? The strange, delusional world you whiners live in. Man, look at those 100 percentile parsers. It's a shame we can't all be "carried" like them. In most of the fights I was within 1000 DPS of all the other players. In what universe is that being a "carry"? Hell, the Zul kill was borderline progression because the guild had to rebuild their core roster and the Mythrax kill WAS progression. You are seriously talking out of your backside.

Literally none of what you linked even addressed what I said: Shaman kit is strong it just needs tuning upwards... which is exactly what's happening. Let's look at the links you posted:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#difficulty=4

Let's compare to Beastmaster, an above-median class. They're 5.2% ahead of Elemental. Holy crap, 5.2%? Show those elemental shaman's the bench! We can totally field an army of 40th percentile parsing Beastmasters, but we can't field any skill Elemental Shaman, even though properly played they're hysterically better DPS than just about any recruit our H-Guild and most M-Guilds can even recruit!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19

I won't compare BM here because now they've dropped so many places due to poor scaling they're now below median. Oops... so let's use Frost Mage instead. Only 4.0% ahead of Elemental in your aggregate parse. Wow, we still can't handle 4.0% show the Elemental Shaman the bench, even though player skill and class mastery accounts for upwards of 20% of output.

It never ceases to amaze me how people like you are so mathematically illiterate that you toss out a ranking like "22 out of 24" and don't have the tiniest clue on how to actually analyze the data. You understand that if every spec was within 1% of DPS there would STILL be a 21 out of 24, right? Ah who am I kidding, you have no idea what you're talking about and are so arrogant and full of it you'll never learn. Better to just SUCK and beg for buffs.
11/11/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Thulgrum
11/11/2018 12:53 AMPosted by Omegaspirets
So I just looked up your raid logs.

Reread your post, you are either the most sarcastic person on the planet or so nieve that you can’t see how bad Ele is right now.

Let’s start with utility. Nope we have nothing that’s baseline that’s strong except for the oh a healer !@#$ed up on cleansing adds in zul and we can tremor, don’t even say hero, mages and hunters got it.

Mobility. What Mobility? Every class you listed has some sort of physical movement gap closer or mobility boost that does not keep them from using abilities, or they have spamable instant casts, or powerful dots, or finishers that don’t require a definitive ramp up time. During ghost wolf we can cast water walking and astral shift.....

The 8.1 buffs do look good but they aren’t doing anything like they are with enhance, but they’ve already nerfed 2 of the major changes on ptr.

TLDR if you were being sarcastic congrats you got me. Lol

My logs are fine. I was 0/10 RoA on the Tuesday logs you're trying to criticize and 2/10 RoA on the Mythrax parse where I still managed a 91st percentile for ilvl. I play well. In fact, when I look up your logs and sort percentiles by ilvl and compare them to mine it's a total shut-out. I blow your parses out of the water. Don't try to log shame me, you don't have the skill to back it up.

If you can't recognize your class' strengths that's on you. I suggest you go see how green the grass isn't on the other side. Frankly, I'm sick of the whining about "but... but... Beastmaster and Affliction!" They aren't the only other 2 RDPS specs in the game and when you compare actual kit, Elemental Shaman's kit is outstanding. Top tier in fact, just needs some number tuning we're getting in 8.1. Fold in the more than 100% buff to Icefury and we now have the 3rd most mobile kit in the RDPS lineup after Beastmaster and Fire Mage.

Seriously, though looking at YOUR logs you'll get far more DPS out of improving your play than begging Blizzard to buff you. I can't believe you attempted to log shame someone 20 ilvls below you when your best performance average for ilvl is the 63rd percentile. Last week was my first raid week ever on Elemental this expac and with no RoA and I was 71st by ilvl. Get a grip man.


I wasn’t log shamming, but since you brought up ilvl, let me educate you. Ilvl parses are based on other people at that ilvl ONLY for a given date. And they change, where is used to have a 98% parse on heroic taloc at 343 is now an 84 and at 343 on mother without going into the room for aoe with storm keeper a 75 vs your 92. Heres a good one at your ilvl fetid you pulled a 45 parse, me 9 ilvl s lower I pulled a 78 and did 100 more dps than you. Zekvoz at 346 ilvl I pulled a 84 parse vs your 343 79 parse. Vectus at 335 I pulled a 83 vs your 77 at 344. Ah zul the one fight ele dominates everyone at, my ilvl at 342 I pulled a 74 vs your 47 at 352. Good job on mythrax, kudos, really, I can never seem so get the visions to stack up close enough for me to fully utilize stormbringer.

As for ghuun you can call me when you kill him. So how about them apples when I compare our equivalent ilvls and I only lost 2 bouts?

TLDR, you aren’t experienced enough to really know how bad Ele is.

Micdrop.
11/11/2018 05:03 PMPosted by Omegaspirets
As for ghuun you can call me when you kill him. So how about them apples when I compare our equivalent ilvls and I only lost 2 bouts?

TLDR, you aren’t experienced enough to really know how bad Ele is.

Micdrop.


I already killed G'huun on my Mage. I swapped because the first raid tier is the best time to swap. TLDR; your meek justification doesn't actually address my criticism of your terrible parses. I reiterate your BEST historical average was 63rd percentile. The bottom line is you aren't good enough for Elemental shaman underperformance to be your primary issue. You can learn from that and grow as a player or choose this as your hill to die on.

Funny for someone who claims to know how to read average parse data, you're conveniently choosing historical data where you were competing with people who had the same relative level of Re-origination array while my parses are competing against people with 10 stacks. It's embarrassing to be shown that you aren't playing as well as you should, so I understand you're trying to save face. Just stop, anyone with a degree of data literacy can see your problem.
*grabs popcorn*

So is enh looking better than ele even with the 8.1 buffs
11/12/2018 07:27 AMPosted by Slimeseason
*grabs popcorn*

So is enh looking better than ele even with the 8.1 buffs

Enhancement is melee so it doesn't matter. Enhancement could be upper mid and they still wouldn't be desirable because there are both too many melee specs and far, far too many melee players.
11/10/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Thulgrum
Elemental's mobility is far better than almost any other RDPS spec. Definitely superior to Balance, Shadow, Marksman, Arcane, GS Frost, Destruction, and Demonology.


Oh boi, I lived to read Ele has more mobility than any Mage spec. This forum never ceases to amuse me.
I had a better time in legion as elemental that is for sure. If I have to move alot, I'm screwed. That movement could be bad location choice, to having to react to the actions of others in the raid who may make the not so awesome choice to place things near me. In either case, the movement can be brutal.

Overall, I like playing the class, and it seems the difference between a purple % parse, and a green, can be pretty small as far as an absolute value goes.

It is definitely a harder class to play than it was in Legion, in my opinion, but it is still fun enough for me to keep rolling with it.

I will say that it can be disappointing when I drop Stormkeeper and chain lightning on a group and I don't see that huge aoe burst like legion, but the graphics are still pretty damn cool.
Ele is not trash spec. Ele is not god spec.

A good player doing M+ and Heroic raiding WILL ALWAYS DPS MORE than an average player regardless of class.

If the good player were to switch classes to a FOTM class would they do even more damage? Of course. But they don't have to and it's not required for non cutting edge, 1-5% guilds.

Do I wish Ele's did more damage, had a spell to cast while moving, had Echo baseline, Gust of Wind back and that Earth Shield also reduced damage by 10% on top of everything else it does? Of course but it doesn't and that's ok because I'm still having fun playing one even though it isn't FOTM.

I don't like to play FOTM classes. I'd rather overperform on an underperforming class than be average or underpersom on an overperforming class. I don't know why I just do.
my mage started outdpsing my ele in M+ at 340 ilv my ele was 370 (your only purpose is to use primal earth ele during necrotic week as ele)

my mage is better for dmg in arena, less support utility ie grounding tremor off-heals skyfury, non-dr stuns

Ele is super trait dependant for pvp viability. So you better get ready to farm lava shock pieces or igneous potential. (as a bonus one of your biggest counters is rogue so enjoy dealing with that little slice of heaven)

havent raided on my mage

did decent as ele in raids would average 12-15k single target could peak around 22-26k depending on rng.

8.1 ele is currently based around getting a lot of nature school hard casts off. Good luck with that in arena.
The burst is very telegraphed and requires you to build up in general not a fan but if you get x3-4 overloads on stormkeeper and they all crit on an unsuspecting plebeian you prolly will get a kill

For just alt playing and messing around in bgs or low cr arena ele probably will be fun, but if you're looking to do more than that mage is probably the more desirable caster, just don't expect to pve as fire.
11/12/2018 09:52 AMPosted by Dúrin
Oh boi, I lived to read Ele has more mobility than any Mage spec. This forum never ceases to amuse me.

I found your problem. Go play Glacial Spike Frost (the current meta) or Arcane. 2 spells while moving every 40 seconds isn't that mobile, especially when you need Shimmer to actually move and not just to continue your hardcast to get out of ground effects. You don't know what you're talking about because you don't play one.

11/12/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Woolly
my mage started outdpsing my ele in M+ at 340 ilv my ele was 370 (your only purpose is to use primal earth ele during necrotic week as ele)


You're playing wrong. Plain and simple. Using Bloodmallet item sims as a barometer the stat gap between 340 and 370 is a bare minimum of 25% DPS. It's actually substantially wider due to something called exponential scaling, but we'll be as generous as possible to your claim. The current M+ spec is Frost which has a spec-score bias of only 10%. Fire has a slightly wider DPS gap, but they bring literally nothing except Time Warp and shouldn't be taken to M+ almost ever.

Oh and by the way, your Frost Mage's utility is being nerfed by over 90% in 8.1 and the burst AoE DPS that makes you desirable for M+ is also being nerfed by like 10%. Honestly, I've never been so certain that re-rolling Elemental was better than when I saw the 8.1 notes for Frost. Mages are going to be garbage for M+ in 8.1.

I won't comment on PvP because I don't do it.
11/12/2018 10:54 PMPosted by Thulgrum
but they bring literally nothing except Time Warp


Also poly... Also dragons breath with can be used as a psudo interrupt... also an interrupt, also de curse... Also a 10% int buff..

But. Literally nothing guys.

Look, you seem to be going full hostile on anyone claiming ele is having issues right now. It is. That is the bottom line. Is it super mega omega garbage trash tier 420 got blazed? No. Shaman are cool.. but honestly the maelstrom system is boring as bat !@#$. Get to X.. then dump. So.. boring. Id rather our system be reworked so it can be a bit more interactive, but i'm not going to get stuck in Ghost wolf and bark at people like you have been.

You also mention the so called "Meta".. Shaman are not part of the meta. So.. if shaman are fine.. yet you judge mages based on the meta as being immobile .. how can both be true? Does that mean that shaman have secretly been meta for all bfa? MY GOD

You don't know what you're talking about because you don't play one.

This wasn't exactly needed.. was it? Your credibility gets lost on people when you choose to be.. Hostile towards others.

Ele has deeper issues than "Just buff the numbers"... Id say something along the lines of.. "You would know if you played one" But hell, that would be so ironic that if irony was made of berries.. we would all be enjoying a lot of smoothies right now. Probs with that popcorn the shadow priest brought with him.. hope he has some spare...
As long as I can play a Dark Iron walking volcano...

TBH I am still learning. This my first caster alt and I mostly lurk here to listen. Anyone have summary of current changes on PTR? Or link to them?
11/10/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Thulgrum
Elemental's mobility is far better than almost any other RDPS spec. Definitely superior to Balance, Shadow, Marksman, Arcane, GS Frost, Destruction, and Demonology.


I... what? How does: Sprint (60% speed increase 2min cd), Travel form (permanent 40% speed increase) Wild Charge (15 second cd) Removing all roots and snares when shifting forms (no cooldown) Stellar Drift (move while casting) + 60% of their offensive spells are instant cast; compare to.... Ghost Wolf?
11/09/2018 04:20 PMPosted by Madalynn
Ele is like a wine or cheese. What this means is that we start off expansions slow and become stronger and stronger as the xpac moves along because of our superior stat scaling.


Quoting for MFing truth.
(I found your problem. Go play Glacial Spike Frost (the current meta) or Arcane. 2 spells while moving every 40 seconds isn't that mobile, especially when you need Shimmer to actually move and not just to continue your hardcast to get out of ground effects. You don't know what you're talking about because you don't play one) - Copy pasting since quote is not working for me atm.

Like, did you ever read Arcane's toolkit? 2 blinks castable while casting other spells + Displacement (for extra 2 blinks). Barrage + Explosion while moving and you're DPS stays decent (which can't be said about Ele's dmg unless you IF, which is a worse version of PoM, ironically an Arcane Mage spell). Not to mention the huge move speed buff from the Barrage talent if you take it. You're just wrong, man. And, as matter of fact, I play Mage and have played all 3 specs in BfA.

Stop trying to push your arguments through with hostility and exaggerated hyperboles. Heck, a Balance druid even showed up just to say you're wrong about them.
11/13/2018 01:31 AMPosted by Starsite

I... what? How does: Sprint (60% speed increase 2min cd), Travel form (permanent 40% speed increase) Wild Charge (15 second cd) Removing all roots and snares when shifting forms (no cooldown) Stellar Drift (move while casting) + 60% of their offensive spells are instant cast; compare to.... Ghost Wolf?

I could take your position apart line-by-line to show that you don't know what you're talking about. Instead I'll let the data speak for itself. Let's look at Mythrax, the most mobile fight in the tier:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2135

Below Elemental. The only reason Heroic parses are higher is because most guilds use highly inefficient spread strategies which Balance capitalizes on by multi-dotting. In the highly efficient Mythic strategies where spread dotting isn't as effective since the adds spawn more stacked, Balance's true mobility weaknesses are laid bare. Jeez, it's almost as if I play a Balance druid so know that they're actually pretty slow turrets.

Oh and by the way, just because it might help you deal decent DPS: Stellar Drift is a DPS loss. It's an even larger DPS loss in cleave and AoE (check Herodamage if you don't believe me). It also requires you to be in close quarters with the enemies like a melee class making you take more damage. The best-case mobile cast if you don't have astral power is Sunfire which is 20% SP. Frost shock is 45%, more than double. Your DoTs actually don't even compensate for this. Flame Shock is 157.5% spellpower (13.125% per GCD), both your dots combined are 195% spellpower (21% per GCD). Meaning DoTs included with no astral power your given mobile DPS is 41% spell power per mobile GCD vs Elemental's 58% per mobile GCD.

Oh, but we can't forget Starsurge. Which has a spellpower co-efficient 20% Spellpower lower than Earth Shock, meaning even when banking resources in prediction of movement, Elemental is STILL better. And we best not forget Lava Surge, which balance has absolutely no analogue for. Those mobility spells look tasty for Balance though... until you realize you lose a GCD getting into form to use them and another GCD to get back into Moonkin form, costing 2 GCD's for every 1 Elemental uses for Ghost Wolf.

People, I know you love your pity parties, but Jesus I'm just using basic mathematics and aggregate parse data properly. The question in the OP was simple: is Elemental shaman so bad it warrants them being ostracized and benched. The answer is a resounding: no, not in any universe.

11/13/2018 07:47 AMPosted by Dúrin

Like, did you ever read Arcane's toolkit? 2 blinks castable while casting other spells + Displacement (for extra 2 blinks). Barrage + Explosion while moving and you're DPS stays decent (which can't be said about Ele's dmg unless you IF, which is a worse version of PoM, ironically an Arcane Mage spell). Not to mention the huge move speed buff from the Barrage talent if you take it. You're just wrong, man. And, as matter of fact, I play Mage and have played all 3 specs in BfA.

Stop trying to push your arguments through with hostility and exaggerated hyperboles. Heck, a Balance druid even showed up just to say you're wrong about them.

Not only have I read Arcane's toolkit, my first progression kills this expansion were done as Arcane. What I can tell you based on your understanding of their kit is that you would be the worst DPS in the raid as one.

You don't barrage while moving, you eat the dead cast so you don't have to rebuild Blast stacks. Arcane explosion is PBAOE, it's totally unusable in almost any situation where you need to cast on the move unless you're standing in the melee pile which Ranged should almost never do. It's also extremely mana negative and delays your burn phase with every use, netting a DPS loss in all situations except 3+ target AoE. Displacement has a 30 second cooldown, only moves you back to where you were, and must be used within 10 seconds of the initial blink, so I have no idea where you got the idea that you get 2 extra blinks from it. These inaccuracies are really, really glaring given that you bragged about playing one. But they are completely expected from someone who has an ilvl 320 alt they played for 2 days and never did anything serious with.

The balance druid that showed up to tell me I'm wrong? They don't know how to play their class. They're taking an AoE talent on single target to stand in melee in order to benefit from "mobility." An AoE talent that is also inferior on AoE to the other AoE talents in the tier. They're counting their kit as mobile without even reading their spell co-efficients. They don't know how to play.

11/12/2018 11:12 PMPosted by Gron

Also poly... Also dragons breath with can be used as a psudo interrupt... also an interrupt, also de curse... Also a 10% int buff..

But. Literally nothing guys.

Are you seriously attempting to argue Fire Mage's bring meaningful M+ utility? Why is intellect valuable? In a typical M+ comp it's 2 melee 1 ranged. If you go 2 ranged and one is a hunter Int is again just for the Healer. Dragon's breath as a pseudo-interrupt? It doesn't work on bosses! Counterspell has a 24 second CD, double almost any other interrupt in the game. It's literally the WORST interrupt in the game because bosses are immune to spell lockout. Just... wow. This isn't up for discussion, Elemental parses at high keys outnumber Fire 1.5:1 and that's DESPITE the stigma against Elemental.
Sorry. You lose all credibility when you state that ele sham are one of the most mobile ranged dps.

People with 1000x more experience than you have argued the opposite.

No. I don't think ele shams are as bad as the stigma. They still need a ton of help, which 8.1 is a step in the right direction. But when you say things like you have, you lose any ability to convince others of your legit points.

And yes. You 100% got carried in your heroic uldir runs.
11/13/2018 01:31 AMPosted by Starsite

I... what? How does: Sprint (60% speed increase 2min cd), Travel form (permanent 40% speed increase) Wild Charge (15 second cd) Removing all roots and snares when shifting forms (no cooldown) Stellar Drift (move while casting) + 60% of their offensive spells are instant cast; compare to.... Ghost Wolf?

I could take your position apart line-by-line to show that you don't know what you're talking about. Instead I'll let the data speak for itself. Let's look at Mythrax, the most mobile fight in the tier:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#boss=2135

Below Elemental. The only reason Heroic parses are higher is because most guilds use highly inefficient spread strategies which Balance capitalizes on by multi-dotting. In the highly efficient Mythic strategies where spread dotting isn't as effective since the adds spawn more stacked, Balance's true mobility weaknesses are laid bare. Jeez, it's almost as if I play a Balance druid so know that they're actually pretty slow turrets.

Oh and by the way, just because it might help you deal decent DPS: Stellar Drift is a DPS loss. It's an even larger DPS loss in cleave and AoE (check Herodamage if you don't believe me). It also requires you to be in close quarters with the enemies like a melee class making you take more damage. The best-case mobile cast if you don't have astral power is Sunfire which is 20% SP. Frost shock is 45%, more than double. Your DoTs actually don't even compensate for this. Flame Shock is 157.5% spellpower (13.125% per GCD), both your dots combined are 195% spellpower (21% per GCD). Meaning DoTs included with no astral power your given mobile DPS is 41% spell power per mobile GCD vs Elemental's 58% per mobile GCD.

Oh, but we can't forget Starsurge. Which has a spellpower co-efficient 20% Spellpower lower than Earth Shock, meaning even when banking resources in prediction of movement, Elemental is STILL better. And we best not forget Lava Surge, which balance has absolutely no analogue for. Those mobility spells look tasty for Balance though... until you realize you lose a GCD getting into form to use them and another GCD to get back into Moonkin form, costing 2 GCD's for every 1 Elemental uses for Ghost Wolf.

People, I know you love your pity parties, but Jesus I'm just using basic mathematics and aggregate parse data properly. The question in the OP was simple: is Elemental shaman so bad it warrants them being ostracized and benched. The answer is a resounding: no, not in any universe.


Lol I don't base my views off math and parses. I base it off of what I feel when I play each class in different environments. A pure patchwork style raid encounter means nothing to me.. I'm talking about what I can do in the open world, in pvp and mythic + on a day to day basis and let me tell you, Balance Druid is leaps and bounds more mobile in the real world.

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