Alliance Darkshore questline

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10/08/2018 08:58 PMPosted by Yersynia
Give it up. No wall, weapon, loss, gain or manoeuvre means anything in this setting. There are infinite soldiers doing whatever the plot dictates.


Exactly this.
I am ambivalent on the subject of Anduin's datamined broadcast text, as from what we've already seen, text can change during the PTR stage, and the end of the Zuldazar raid is basically the end of the patch, and probably not something we'll even see before its release.

It's what we've got for now to work with, but right now while the events are set in stone, that post-raid dialogue is far from set in stone.
10/08/2018 09:03 PMPosted by Savanovic
10/08/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Darethy
it's just going to mean that the Alliance has to slog through the new fortified forests of Kalimdor


Shouldn't it be the Horde slogging through forests and actually you know, struggling to fortify them because they are still inhabited by enraged guerrilla fighters who know the terrain far better than the invaders? Shouldn't the Orcish peons and grunts be getting kind of sick of being sent out of Durotar to go die in some god forsaken haunted Kaldorei forest for their - wait for it - Forsaken Warchief? Or is it only the Forsaken occupying the forests? That seems kind of ridiculous too. How can a race that is supposedly already dwindling in numbers (thus their motivation to raise more undead) both be fortifying the thick ancient forests of Ashenvale and Darkshore while still having significant enough forces committed to the Eastern Kingdoms (where they're originally from)?


You are 100% right and the story supports you but that wont stop others trying to spin it to fit what they want to happen.
10/08/2018 08:58 PMPosted by Yersynia
In the game with portals
Honestly this. Portals make the logistics game kind of silly provided every fort has a mage or three. Nevermind the Lightforged beacons, void elf portals, dark iron mole machines... actually it's a little scary how every single one of the Alliance's new races bring some terrifying way to suddenly transport troops.
10/08/2018 09:02 PMPosted by Lena
No, no. If the Horde could successfully invade Khaz Modan then the Arathi warfront should be completely over. The Horde should have just walked all over the Alliance.
except they will never get the chance to successfully invade khaz modan because the alliance never gives them a breather to get things sorted. whenever they take it, they are forced onto the defensive by alliance coming to take it back.
10/08/2018 09:04 PMPosted by Saiphas
Lena, are you just being deliberately obtuse? The destruction of half the Golden Fleet and its harbor secure the ability of the Alliance to command the seas. Furthermore, this allows the Alliance to consolidate the gains made in the EK and ensure that their lines of supply are fully intact. THEN, once the EK has been secured (and the remaining refugees of the Night Elves in SW are safe). They can then press toward Kalimdor. We are seeing maybe the first few months in a conflict that if accurate should span years. The second war was 3 years of combat with 2-3 years between the end of the 1st war and the start of the second.


WHAT GAINS? The Alliance is stuck in Arathi. They haven't made any gains.

Night elves won't have a home to return to in 2-3 years.

10/08/2018 09:05 PMPosted by Withpuppys
except they will never get the chance to successfully invade khaz modan because the alliance never gives them a breather to get things sorted. whenever they take it, they are forced onto the defensive by alliance coming to take it back.


If they can't take and keep Arathi then they would have no hope of every taking Khaz Modan.
Maybe? It feels like it should be that, but then Anduin talks about wanting to "drive a wedge" between the Horde and the Zandalari.

That's not the same plan.

I would rather that the assault simply has the military objective that you are describing, rather than this more diplomatic idea that doesn't seem to really make sense. We'll see.


They way I see it Anduin's greatest flaw is he is being too optimistic about the whole thing. He wants to "drive a wedge" but at the same time make the Zandalari capitulate. He himself said killing Rastakhan was never a goal but when push came to shove Jaina took the chance because she probably thought Rastakan would never surrender.

If they can't take and keep Arathi then they would have no hope of every taking Khaz Modan.


Until Sylvanas can finally land her fleet and erase any gains north the Alliance has made.
10/08/2018 09:05 PMPosted by Jerolan
10/08/2018 08:58 PMPosted by Yersynia
In the game with portals
Honestly this. Portals make the logistics game kind of silly provided every fort has a mage or three. Nevermind the Lightforged beacons, void elf portals, dark iron mole machines... actually it's a little scary how every single one of the Alliance's new races bring some terrifying way to suddenly transport troops.


Look, we are operating with what we got here. I have railed about how stupid the entire faction war is from the start. Like literally you can see me call it a farce I think in this very thread. However, that does not mean that I can't realize what Blizz is trying to tell, because the devs DO care about the story, just probably not in the same manner and about the same things as different sections of the FB does.

Edit:@ Lena, Securing the entirety of the Northern portions of the EK, Arathi included. BUt you honestly wont believe any evidence that I provide.
10/08/2018 09:03 PMPosted by Savanovic
10/08/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Darethy
it's just going to mean that the Alliance has to slog through the new fortified forests of Kalimdor


Shouldn't it be the Horde slogging through forests and actually you know, struggling to fortify them because they are still inhabited by enraged guerrilla fighters who know the terrain far better than the invaders? Shouldn't the Orcish peons and grunts be getting kind of sick of being sent out of Durotar to go die in some god forsaken haunted Kaldorei forest for their - wait for it - Forsaken Warchief? Or is it only the Forsaken occupying the forests? That seems kind of ridiculous too. How can a race that is supposedly already dwindling in numbers (thus their motivation to raise more undead) both be fortifying the thick ancient forests of Ashenvale and Darkshore while still having significant enough forces committed to the Eastern Kingdoms (where they're originally from)?


Trust me on this, the war for North Vietnam would of turned out MUCH differently if the Americans had ever managed to smash the Ho Chi Minh trail decisively. Even if there are Alliance guerrillas all over the place they've been operating with a decentralized command after the sack of Darnassus and the refocus of the Alliance on EK.

Between the Orcs, Trolls, Forsaken, and Goblins they're in a horrible spot. Tyrande is going to try and break them out of that, even if it apparently costs them the war.
Prevent it from being destroyed.
That's not what you said. You said the Night Elves cannot win the war unless they take their lands back. What is taking their wartorn lands back going to do to win them the war? How are they going to supply this attack, especially since they doing it without the support of the rest of the Alliance.

And even if they take it back, what's to stop the Horde from just smashing the weakened region again?
This is why you have strategy during wars. Just making emotional, poorly planned out decisions isn't going to win anything.
10/08/2018 09:11 PMPosted by Cytriss
That's not what you said. You said the Night Elves cannot win the war unless they take their lands back. What is taking their wartorn lands back going to do to win them the war? How are they going to supply this attack, especially since they doing it without the support of the rest of the Alliance.

And even if they take it back, what's to stop the Horde from just smashing the weakened region again?
This is why you have strategy during wars. Just making emotional, poorly planned out decisions isn't going to win anything.


How can the night elves win if their lands are all lost forever? There's no winning in that situation.
10/08/2018 09:07 PMPosted by Lena
If they can't take and keep Arathi then they would have no hope of every taking Khaz Modan.
the reason they have difficulty keeping it, is because they have the same problem as the night elves have in darkshore, but if the alliance were to let the horde set up shop in arathi uncontested, then that would put khaz modan at risk because if left uncontested they can just build up a stronghold good and proper and start to use it to build siege equipment like azerblight bombs to attack the dwarves with.

so in order to avoid this from ever happening the alliance must always compete with them in arathi and make sure they never get a break.
10/08/2018 09:08 PMPosted by Darethy
Trust me on this, the war for North Vietnam would of turned out MUCH differently if the Americans had ever managed to smash the Ho Chi Minh trail decisively.


You mean if the military wasn't held back by idealists and politicians like Anduin who were too afraid to commit?

They literally allowed the NVA/USSR to build state-of-the-art Surface to air missiles that killed their aircrew by the thousands. And then wondered why all the bodies being shipped back made the public angry.
10/08/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Lena


How can the night elves win if their lands are all lost forever? There's no winning in that situation.


Horrible as it sounds?

By not dying.
10/08/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Darethy
10/08/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Lena


How can the night elves win if their lands are all lost forever? There's no winning in that situation.


Horrible as it sounds?

By not dying.
exactly, the lands will also not be lost forever, blight can be cleaned up and forests can be regrown, both of which can be done after the war
10/08/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Withpuppys
the reason they have difficulty keeping it, is because they have the same problem as the night elves have in darkshore, but if the alliance were to let the horde set up shop in arathi uncontested, then that would put khaz modan at risk because if left uncontested they can just build up a stronghold good and proper and start to use it to build siege equipment like azerblight bombs to attack the dwarves with.

so in order to avoid this from ever happening the alliance must always compete with them in arathi and make sure they never get a break.


How is the Horde reinforcing Arathi then? Surely they must have some other fortification nearby that is uncontested.

10/08/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Darethy
Horrible as it sounds?

By not dying.


That's not winning, that's just surviving.
10/08/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Darethy
10/08/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Lena


How can the night elves win if their lands are all lost forever? There's no winning in that situation.


Horrible as it sounds?

By not dying.


Speaking of not dying, The death of the 4th Val'Kyr signals to me how/what is going to happen to Sylv, She is going to end up in a situation where either she has to die or the Val'kyr die, and Choose to stay dead to let the Forsaken live on. Insert "Morally Grey" here
I'm not sure what you guys are expecting. It sounds like what you want is for the night elves to, I don't know - ascend to some kind of godliness and become an unstoppable, overpowered force? I can't tell.

The following happens in this scenario and have been on the night elf "they'll never do it" wishlist all year:

A) The night elves tell Anduin to shove it, imply that he's an ingrate, and go off on their own to Darkshore. The player goes with them.
B) Tyrande has a character arc that has nothing to do with Malfurion. She has her first major bit of character development since, perhaps, Warcraft 3. She refocuses her entire identity on getting merciless vengeance on the Horde. She demands this power from Elune which is actually pretty ballsy and a great moment, imo! I haven't been this invested in her character since the night elf campaign in RoC.
C) The night elves stomp the Horde. Tyrande is only briefly stymied before she apparently one-shots one of the beings responsible for the existence of the entire Forsaken race. This shocks and enrages Nathanos. The way that line is read in the voice over is satisfying as hell.

We have some cinematics incoming that'll presumably show off the power of the night warriors better than what we can see in-game. The world-darkening moment where Tyrande frees herself shows her new powers quite well, I thought. Tyrande and Malfurion are already extremely powerful lore figures and the Horde have little to match them. If you make them too strong it becomes somewhat absurd and badly unbalanced, narratively speaking.
10/08/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Neridon
I'm not sure what you guys are expecting. It sounds like what you want is for the night elves to, I don't know - ascend to some kind of godliness and become an unstoppable, overpowered force? I can't tell.

The following happens in this scenario and have been on the night elf "they'll never do it" wishlist all year:

A) The night elves tell Anduin to shove it, imply that he's an ingrate, and go off on their own to Darkshore. The player goes with them.
B) Tyrande has a character arc that has nothing to do with Malfurion. She has her first major bit of character development since, perhaps, Warcraft 3. She refocuses her entire identity on getting merciless vengeance on the Horde. She demands this power from Elune which is actually pretty ballsy and a great moment, imo! I haven't been this invested in her character since the night elf campaign in RoC.
C) The night elves stomp the Horde. Tyrande is only briefly stymied before she apparently one-shots one of the beings responsible for the existence of the entire Forsaken race. This shocks and enrages Nathanos. The way that line is read in the voice over is satisfying as hell.

We have some cinematics incoming that'll presumably show off the power of the night warriors better than what we can see in-game. The world-darkening moment where Tyrande frees herself shows her new powers quite well, I thought. Tyrande and Malfurion are already extremely powerful lore figures and the Horde have little to match them. If you make them too strong it becomes somewhat absurd and badly unbalanced, narratively speaking.


Sooo...the problem is She doesn't one shot it in the Alliance scenario, the PLAYER kills it. Tyrande literally dukes it out with Nathanos solo on the alliance side while the Alliance player beats down the Valk...
10/08/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Neridon
We have some cinematics incoming that'll presumably show off the power of the night warriors better than what we can see in-game. The world-darkening moment where Tyrande frees herself shows her new powers quite well, I thought. Tyrande and Malfurion are already extremely powerful lore figures and the Horde have little to match them. If you make them too strong it becomes somewhat absurd and badly unbalanced, narratively speaking.
They should be intimidating and powerful at first, if only because this is a new power the Horde is unfamiliar with. The cutscene had better have a montage of Horde guards being dragged into the darkness and littered with arrows.

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