Alliance Darkshore questline

Story Forum
Prev 1 17 18 19
10/09/2018 06:37 AMPosted by Vivette
Tyrande is a character with tons of character flaws that mostly stem from her inaction and incompetence repeated over the years of WoW's existence which ultiamtely boiled down to her (in my view) character assassination when War of Thorns came around.


War of Thorns was a lot worse than anything that had happened previously. It's almost impossible to justify her inaction there. Or only with very convoluted reasoning that feels like an excuse in the pejorative sense.

Anyway, I basically agree with you, except that I would want the Night Warrior storyline to actually work. As it stands, it's going make Tyrande and the Night Elves seem even more ridiculous. A huge power up to do... nothing much? What?

As a broader point, they really need to stop with this tendency to have characters out for revenge, when the revenge can never actually occur.

They came pretty close to ruining Jaina with that. It's one thing to tell an anti-hero story wherein a basically decent person with exceptional combat skills gets pushed too far, and the response is badassery, along with gleeful slaughter of the bad guys. John Wick.

That's a pretty common anti-hero type of story.

But it becomes ludicrous if the character in that position never gets to actually do anything. That was the case with Jaina, and now the Night Elves are in a similar state.

With Jaina, they have at least partially extricated her from that problem, but it's only taken... what? A comic, an exceptional warbringer short, and then some of the best in-game cinematics that Blizzard has done, especially the one in the Blighted Lands. And even with all of that, it's still unclear to me that they won't ruin it later in the expansion.

Tyrande is in a worse situation than Jaina was at this point, because of the War of Thorns. And it's not just Tyrande, it's basically all of the Night Elves.

Doing something like the Night Warrior storyline, and having that story lead essentially nowhere, is not helping to improve the situation.
10/09/2018 06:37 AMPosted by Vivette
I have issues with the Night Warrior concept existing at all, or at the very least being used only after the events of War of Thorns/Elegy. Warcraft shouldn't operate on story beats borrowed from Dragon Ball Z.


I agree, but we have to go with the story that exists, not the story that should be. As dumb as it is, Blizzard is going with Goku Whisperwind with this plot thread. I personally think it would have been much more interesting if the Night Warrior rite failed and Blizzard used the Night Elves as an exploration/critique of the "transactional god" thing that exists in so much fantasy, but that's not the timeline you and I wound up in.

I do think, however, that if Blizzard is going to write that the ritual succeeded, they need to have the stones to follow though with it. Having Tyrande successfully complete the rite and then immediately get shown up by a zombie with a bow is a poor payoff, and Warcraft can't pull off the "subversive fantasy" excuse nearly as well as it likes to think it can; just to head that off because I have a strong feeling someone is typing it already. Warcraft is basically the Rian Johnson of fantasy.

Granting the flawed character a "super saiyan buff" isn't a valid attempt to fix the character. And as my cynical self I've no problems seeing the "attempt" to fix Tyrande's character immediately faceplant right at introduction.


And I didn't say that it was a valid attempt to fix the character. Just trying to explain why people, myself included, are ticked off about this. I don't want Tyrande going Super Saiyan Eleventy-Four-Twelve or whatever any more than you do, but you play the cards you're dealt.
10/09/2018 09:31 AMPosted by Suréna
Doing something like the Night Warrior storyline, and having that story lead essentially nowhere, is not helping to improve the situation.

to be fair i think that the questline is just beginning i remember seeing datamined things about some sort of duel between maiev and sira, so i hope that we can see more about this in the future.

i just hope that doesn't end in a endless warfront that leads nowhere.

but yeah, the alliance side is awesome.. except the anticlimatic ending... probably one of the worst thing that i ever see.
10/09/2018 06:07 AMPosted by Kelrexia
10/08/2018 10:25 PMPosted by Suréna
It's just a question of delivering on the concept. Simple stuff. It doesn't mean that there can't be more adversity later. Or, alternately, don't bother with powering up the character. Just tell a story about the character overcoming adversity.


This is ultimately the main problem with the scenario.

The Darkshore scenario is nothing but half an hour of shaggy dog story. They spend the first 85% of it Alliance side building it up -- you do an investigation, have a running fight through the ruins of Auberdine and the Horde death camp, and even save Ash'alah after she follows Tyrande.

Only for it to end with an impotent squirt. The Alliance kill a val'kyr, which is basically narratively worthless because it's been established in Cataclysm questing that Sylvie has literally infinite "lesser" val'kyr with all the powers and none of the weaknesses of the "prime" ones (and will probably just pull more prime valks directly out of her !@# the minute she loses her 1-up) and completely fail to accomplish -- anything, really.

Sentinels are still raised and join the Forsaken of their complete free will no mind control, we freeze Belmont and company instead of killing them so they're still on the board, don't even disturb a single pebble in the Horde encampment and Natty gets to punch far above his weight class in taking on what are essentially three demigods, when he logically should be an interestingly colored manlet smear on the beaches of Darkshore after taking on Malfurion, Night Warrior Tyrande and the PC. We don't even get the satisfaction of rattling him or pissing him off, he heads off with the same "SMUG SMUG SMUG" dialogue that at this point all blurs together into one indistinguishable ball of pretentiousness.

It's disappointing and pointless even by the standards of Warcraft storytelling.


The lesser valkyr cant do !@#$. Your just making that up. The major valkyr that became part of the pact are were like the prime valkyr when they were with the scourge. They are the only ones who can bring sylvanas back too life and the only ones who can truly raise forsaken. The lesser ones just raise mindless weak zombies. Yes the scenario needs work but stop making things up.
10/09/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Amadeus
Yes the scenario needs work but stop making things up.
You mean the way Blizzard makes things up as they go? There's no reason to believe that a couple lesser Val'kyr can't merge themselves together to make a greater Val'kyr. That's the caliber of writing at Blizzard right now. There's no integrity in the story, there's no limitations.

This is what happens when you just pull random people from the office to be the story team. You have Jaina riding a spectral ship. You have Sylvanas flying to an airship. You can't make sense of this stuff.
Having Tyrande successfully complete the rite and then immediately get shown up by a zombie with a bow is a poor payoff, and Warcraft can't pull off the "subversive fantasy" excuse nearly as well as it likes to think it can [...]


I don't see many signs that the writers are trying to be subversive in this case. BfA as a whole seems to be more inspired by Game of Thrones, or a superficial reading of GoT. Sweeping conflict, "shocking" events, competing strategies, and so on.

It's more that their narrative constantly falls into the trap of only the villain actually accomplishing anything.

They can have the empowered Night Elves slaughter as many nameless NPCs as they want, the only thing in the whole storyline that actually matters is what happens at the end. At that point, the Forsaken accomplish their goal, while empowered Tyrande fails to stop them, and looks silly doing it.

Only the dubious point of the Val'kyr being killed prevents the whole thing from being a total failure, or even accidentally making the Forsaken significantly stronger.

Point one is simply giving a character like Tyrande an active goal that isn't stopping the bad guys, or seeking revenge.

Those are her goals, and she accomplishes neither, in spite of this ritual empowerment.

But the problem is deeper than that. As long as they write the alliance characters as not having active goals other than revenge or re-establishing a status quo, their story will never amount to anything.

Jaina's story has temporarily been fantastic, but that's because it has been neither of those things. The question of eventually dealing with the Horde has remained in the background. The focus has been on atonement, redemption, and reconciliation with her family and Kul Tiras.

That has allowed her to have a goal that is not revenge. It's more redemption through suffering. And she ends up transforming the situation in Kul Tiras, putting an end to the Ashvane conspiracy and liberating the fleet.

But it's hard for me to tell if that is just a blip, or a sign of the problem being understood conceptually on their end.

The Night Warrior story doesn't say much, since it feels grafted onto the main story, as a way of not ignoring the Night Elves entirely. It falls into the usual trap, but that could be because there simply isn't anything important for Tyrande to do at this time.
10/09/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Suréna
Jaina's story has temporarily been fantastic, but that's because it has been neither of those things. The question of eventually dealing with the Horde has remained in the background. The focus has been on atonement, redemption, and reconciliation with her family and Kul Tiras.


indeed and that was only possible because literally she is the focus on the alliance, you only needed a comic,an exelent warbringer, 6 cinematics (counting lordaeron boat and escape) and an entire questline dedicated. and now, being a raid boss that would probably end with another cinematic.
and even after that we don't exactly know her current state.

How can we compare it to tyrande with a minor scenario?
the last time that tyrande was in a cinematic was when she killed ysera but has little to do with the current story.
it's hard to find this night warrior as engaging if the narrative don't allow you to really connect with the character or what story they are trying to tell.
i hope that we can see something more expanded on this front.
10/09/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Etheldald

How can we compare it to tyrande with a minor scenario?


It can't compare, of course. And I wouldn't expect that.

But not aggravating the problem, and not presenting the entire storyline as completely futile, and even laughable?

That's a reasonable expectation. The more they build up the ritual, the more ridiculous the whole thing becomes, with this ending to the storyline.

It would be different if this were a bloodied, weakened Tyrande, using stealth attacks, acting alone, tracking the Forsaken as they attempt to raise the corpses. At that point, coming away with a partial victory would create a different impression.

It's not the event itself, it's the way the story is constructed around it, at least mostly.
10/09/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Amadeus
The lesser valkyr cant do !@#$. Your just making that up.


These Lesser Val'kyr can raise new Forsaken like the original nine bound to Sylvanas[1] but as pointed out during BlizzCon, these lesser Val'kyr are not part of the original pact and are thus not strong enough to revive Sylvanas


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lesser_Val%27kyr

10/09/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Suréna
I don't see many signs that the writers are trying to be subversive in this case.


I was more trying to preempt any "But they're just subverting your expectattttaaaaatttttiiiiooonnnnss" argument, which seems to be a trendy new thing to try and defend bad writing with. I've seen it pop up in numerous places, at least.

BfA as a whole seems to be more inspired by Game of Thrones, or a superficial reading of GoT.


I'll take "Superficial Reading" for $500, Trebek.
10/09/2018 04:46 PMPosted by Kelrexia

I was more trying to preempt any "But they're just subverting your expectattttaaaaatttttiiiiooonnnnss" argument, which seems to be a trendy new thing to try and defend bad writing with.


I see what you mean, yes. Anyway, I agree that the argument doesn't seem to apply here.
10/09/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Cytriss
10/09/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Amadeus
Yes the scenario needs work but stop making things up.
You mean the way Blizzard makes things up as they go? There's no reason to believe that a couple lesser Val'kyr can't merge themselves together to make a greater Val'kyr. That's the caliber of writing at Blizzard right now. There's no integrity in the story, there's no limitations.

This is what happens when you just pull random people from the office to be the story team. You have Jaina riding a spectral ship. You have Sylvanas flying to an airship. You can't make sense of this stuff.


We arent talking about what they could make canon we are talking about whats canon NOW

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum