WoW Subscribers

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Then before that it was Legendaries in Legion, etc. The list goes on for each expansion. I remember seeing people on the forums claiming that the 1.6 patch was going to kill the game because it allowed players to queue for BGs at the Battlemasters in capital cities and thus they were unsubbing, this was 13 years ago.

I don't want to diminish or invalidate anyone's criticism with this post but yes, GD has always been like this and always will.


Just gotta say, despite saying you don't want to diminish or invalidate criticism, you do just that. People actually do drop their subscriptions, some temporarily, some permanent. I've done it myself from time to time, when developers had pushed something unpalatable and waited things out until you made a change that corrected it. Some of my friends on the other hand, have dropped out of the game entirely in frustration with your design choices. And no, you can't please everyone, but coming off as if you don't care if people drop their subscriptions or not is.... well, one could use the words brazen and callous. Your game and company exists on the good will of your subscribers - it is entirely possible to burn through that good will. While it might not doom your product, it certainly doesn't help it, or help your consumers justify sticking through rough patches. (Of which, BfA has plenty.)

As a long time player I can get frustrated, but I can also be patient. At the same time, I would like to point out a big difference between BfA and prior expansions for me personally. In past expansions, even the much maligned Warlords, I would try to coax my real life friends into playing WoW with me. Since BfA beta was so unresponsive, and the current issues in the game such as Azerite gear, I have stopped my attempts to lure my friends to Azeroth. This should tell you something.


I don't think he diminished or invalidated criticism at all. He's right, the forums are always on fire. No matter what they do, the players that are unhappy will complain and there will always be players that are unhappy. All they can do is try to please the most people possible. I don't work in video games, but I do work in a position where I make changes to products and I see peoples reactions. Its just the way it is.

We should also remember that (imo) the forums are not the best source of feedback for developers. It is a critical tool for them, but hey have access to way way more data than we do on all of these issues. The forums over-react and over dramatize issues. Its human nature.

edit: I should add that developers at blizzard do make mistakes. What we as players tend to not realize is the amount of time and effort it takes to make even a small change when they want to fix something. We demand changes NOW, and blizzard is actually quite fast for a software company at fixing those. Its just seems slow to us when all we want to do is enjoy the game.
10/11/2018 08:09 PMPosted by Astarael
10/11/2018 08:03 PMPosted by Ameghan
Nah, it's always like this here


No it isn't? I was here during Legion, at no point (especially the first two months) did we have hundreds of threads of people complaining about core game mechanics and declaring their unsub.


Yeah there were.. after people starting doing calculations for their weapons and how long it was going to take to max them out.. Even more so after the 'tier 2' stuff came out. Then there was non-core stuff like how they had changed mogging etc etc etc.
10/12/2018 01:56 PMPosted by Easybreezy
im actually kind of sad to see this reply as it just feels inline with everything going on lately. shrug of the shoulders and oh well, btw we are making azurite more complicated, have a nice day!!. in this answer all I see is more of the same our way or the highway attitude from blizz. its disappointing.


10/12/2018 02:09 PMPosted by Tadpo
Just gotta say, despite saying you don't want to diminish or invalidate criticism, you do just that.

Sorry if that was the feeling at all as like I said I don't aim to do that by any means.

Even though we all know how GD can get, we by no means use that to dismiss any present feelings or overall concerns. We recognize everyone is coming from a good place when they raise a concern and every forum post does have a point. Sometimes the point is a little silly or we disagree with it, but that doesn't make it any less valid from that perspective of that player (even if they use McNuggets to explain it). Internally though we share a lot of the concerns you guys have, and conversations happen daily around them as well. We discuss what actually causes this problem and how to solve it. That includes fixing something if we feel it does need to be fixed.
10/12/2018 12:47 PMPosted by Ythisens
10/11/2018 08:24 PMPosted by Cryptdust
Yeah, it was. Before this it was about flying and gated allied races.

Then before that it was Legendaries in Legion, etc. The list goes on for each expansion. I remember seeing people on the forums claiming that the 1.6 patch was going to kill the game because it allowed players to queue for BGs at the Battlemasters in capital cities and thus they were unsubbing, this was 13 years ago.

I don't want to diminish or invalidate anyone's criticism with this post but yes, GD has always been like this and always will.


This has alot to do with ignoring the player base and feedback
I enjoyed Legion far more than BfA. Loved the quests, the awesome zone designs and graphics. I ran through 4 characters. Took three thru Argus.
Planning to only run one Alliance and one Horde to 120, do some world quests and unsub. My Raid and Instance days are long long over.
I think people want to hear that their complaints are being heard and addressed.

At launch you told us azerite is fine. Maybe needs some tweaking. Instead it turned into 300 weekly hotfixes and even more changes coming.

You told us classes are fine, just needs some tweaking. Now there's class revamps coming because they didn't happen in beta.

You said islands were fine, just needs tweaking. Now it's oops sorry they're awful we'll try to make them less bad.

You said leveling was fine but then you also went back and made huge adjustments to 60-8.

So when you say subscriptions are fine, I think a lot of us get suspicious. Would you be saying that if they were fine? It doesn't seem like it would even be noteworthy.

It just seems like there's this... Trend for this expansion that didn't exist in Legion or MoP.
10/12/2018 02:35 PMPosted by Ythisens
(even if they use McNuggets to explain it).


I require a link to this post.

Immediately.

Please.
10/12/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Mvura
Snapshot from 2008:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080914142515/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com:80/board.html?forumId=10001&sid=1

Can't see the thread content, but just skim the titles. Tell me its different, lol.

Some great ones:

"Waste of Time"
"What Would Make WoW Fun Again?"
"I'm leaving WoW"
"Quit being cheapskates Blizzard"
"Does everyone here hate this game?" <--- (ROFL)
"Just tell me how to quit WoW...." (apparently there were issues unsubscribing)


It's not. It's just different players saying it now. A lot of people in those threads likely wouldn't show up in the armory because their accounts are inactive.

10/12/2018 12:47 PMPosted by Ythisens
I don't want to diminish or invalidate anyone's criticism with this post but yes, GD has always been like this and always will.


*nod* At times when a chunk of the player base quits it gets like this. But I don't ever think "this is the death of wow". Realistically, even if it lost 1-2 million players every xpac (which seems to be the common trend) it'd still take 8-10 more years to stop being profitable/die. EQ is still going last I knew, so...yeah. It's hard to really kill an MMO or have it not be profitable. And WoW still has options like switching to a buy to play/sub optional system to fall back on before it ever gets too low to make a profit. Though, in a way I guess it already has. It's just more subtle about it.

It doesn't mean a lot of players aren't quiting. It just means that it doesn't mean much in the greater "is this game still profitable" department. Next xpac a bunch of players will leave and it'll be like this all over again. More servers will merge..I mean share a shard and wow will continue on.

Personally, if it wasn't for the gold I can make in the first few weeks of an xpac, which essentially pays my wow time+xpac cost, I'd likely wait 6 months before buying a new xpac at this point. That's about how long it takes for things to get worked out/flying to be easily achievable/catch up mechanics alleviating the grind. I'm sure in another 3 months this xpac will be amazing and a bunch of fun. The same as legion was 6 months in. But if I had to pay out of pocket during the first 6 months? I'd save $90 of sub fees and show up later when the game offered me a different experience than other games do.
" We discuss what actually causes this problem and how to solve it. That includes fixing something if we feel it does need to be fixed. "

And things like some points about azerite traits, the state of elemental, shadow, and feral, and global cd, all those being said by A LOT of different kind of people, with funny, rage, or coherent, with little detail, or many.. But whatever it is, most seem to be ignored, because some points have continued from the beta to nowadays, and its frustrating tbh, when some questions are ignored, or answered by avoiding the real point of the question that was asked.. And it happend some times here on foruns, on YT, reddit, so... Like when we had the AMA on reddit and the 2nd top question was ignored, but some questions with like few likes, got answered w/o reason
10/12/2018 02:50 PMPosted by Rorrand
10/12/2018 02:35 PMPosted by Ythisens
(even if they use McNuggets to explain it).


I require a link to this post.

Immediately.

Please.


https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769497319?page=1

It also spawned a lot of copycat type threads for every fast food out there.
10/11/2018 08:00 PMPosted by Astarael
Is it just me or have there been far, far more threads claiming to not continue their sub/cancel completely compared to all throughout Legion? Like, it's getting to a point where I'm wondering if Blizzard is worried or not. I don't want to go through another WoD debacle but I'm just personally noticing the increase in people who seemingly are done with my favorite game of all time.

This is troubling, no? Blizzard do you even care?


I missed MoP, WoD, and a larger portion of Legion because I was one of those people who unsubbed towards the end of Cata, anticipating that MoP was going to be awful... There were a number of design issues I had disliked toward late Cata heading into MoP. Plus real life responsibilities... So I unsubbed.

To conclude that prelude, honestly the amount of threads or people saying they're going to quit playing/unsub really doesn't seem any different than then to me. It's always been around in my experience. I still remember when people whose main were druids claimed they were going to unsub until they brought tree form back. LOL! People will claim they'll unsub for anything tbh.
10/12/2018 12:42 PMPosted by Snowfox
10/12/2018 12:40 PMPosted by Spinster
...

It really isn’t.

lol yes it is.

Let's not pretend GD wasn't a vicious place full of "I quit!" and "wow is dying!" threads before BfA.


There were always a few “I quit because my class sucks” posts and “I hate this feature so I quit” posts. But WoD was the first expact that started having a plethora of really sad posts with people who had played forever feeling like the game was wrecked in big ways. And yeah, since then there have been regular unhappy “I quit” posts. Sometimes they dribble in and sometimes they take over the first page. That’s because the game has been a lot worse for three expacs now — better in Legion but not great and now worse again.
10/11/2018 08:19 PMPosted by Brahmina
The real question is, how many of those saying they've unsubbed actually did so? And if they did, how long before they bought another month?

I believe the ones that say they've sold off all their items and used the gold to buy tokens for other games, which they'll play as long as they don't have to pay for it. Those people aren't coming back this expansion; they have nothing to come back to.

Then there are the people whose posting rate drops and their armories show they haven't changed their gear in a month. Those people are going to unsub even if they themselves don't know it yet.

Blizzard is going to lose a quarter to a half of their Alliance player base - 10-20% of their total player base - in the next six months due to war mode imbalance. The sad part is, they'll probably chalk it up to normal postexpansion falloff when they could fairly easily keep those players.
10/12/2018 02:35 PMPosted by Ythisens
10/12/2018 01:56 PMPosted by Easybreezy
im actually kind of sad to see this reply as it just feels inline with everything going on lately. shrug of the shoulders and oh well, btw we are making azurite more complicated, have a nice day!!. in this answer all I see is more of the same our way or the highway attitude from blizz. its disappointing.


10/12/2018 02:09 PMPosted by Tadpo
Just gotta say, despite saying you don't want to diminish or invalidate criticism, you do just that.

Sorry if that was the feeling at all as like I said I don't aim to do that by any means.

Even though we all know how GD can get, we by no means use that to dismiss any present feelings or overall concerns. We recognize everyone is coming from a good place when they raise a concern and every forum post does have a point. Sometimes the point is a little silly or we disagree with it, but that doesn't make it any less valid from that perspective of that player (even if they use McNuggets to explain it). Internally though we share a lot of the concerns you guys have, and conversations happen daily around them as well. We discuss what actually causes this problem and how to solve it. That includes fixing something if we feel it does need to be fixed.


im glad you said that, its precisely what many are looking for, its ok to say something that can be taken the wrong way, or do something that doesn't work as planned. Its nature. Taking ownership of the mistake and fixing it speaks volumes more than the actual mistake. I think that's where many of us come from. Its no secret many things in bfa are not working as intended, and I think we get that that can happen when trying to improve a game of this size and age, it just feels like there is no real attempt to communicate with some of the amazing ideas brought forth to fix the issues, instead we feel like we are getting a double down on many things that are already proveing not to work, or just plain silence on others.

its true tha GD is full of all sorts, but there is also some really good feedback that filters thru that seems to just disappear into thin air. I appreciate your reply, that kind of answer goes along way to those looking for answers. That is what needs to be implemented on a much larger scale within the company. That mentality seems to have been lost over the years, and its desperately needed back
10/12/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Mirasol
10/12/2018 02:50 PMPosted by Rorrand
...

I require a link to this post.

Immediately.

Please.


https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769497319?page=1

It also spawned a lot of copycat type threads for every fast food out there.


Thank you...

I think I'll be laughing at "McForges" for the rest of the day now...
10/12/2018 03:00 PMPosted by Yarrow
10/11/2018 08:19 PMPosted by Brahmina
The real question is, how many of those saying they've unsubbed actually did so? And if they did, how long before they bought another month?

I believe the ones that say they've sold off all their items and used the gold to buy tokens for other games, which they'll play as long as they don't have to pay for it. Those people aren't coming back this expansion; they have nothing to come back to.

Then there are the people whose posting rate drops and their armories show they haven't changed their gear in a month. Those people are going to unsub even if they themselves don't know it yet.

Blizzard is going to lose a quarter to a half of their Alliance player base - 10-20% of their total player base - in the next six months due to war mode imbalance. The sad part is, they'll probably chalk it up to normal postexpansion falloff when they could fairly easily keep those players.


I think that's probably right. They purposefully turned off unsub feedback so we know they aren't trying to gather important player feedback, which means that it is very unlikely they even have metrics for player feedback.

Instead, they are selling a narrative of cyclical player bases internally. They'll probably do a comparison to the WoD numbers (which they probably also called cyclical).

But companies don't let executives get away with excuses like that, so if the numbers continue to be bad, the cyclical excuse won't fly.
Game isn't perfect but I will say, small tweaks to help under performing specs have come at a much faster pace than any other expansion I can think of.

My two, biggest gripes are the constant changes to the Azerite traits (Though this seems to be finally settling in) and I hate that our spells behave differently in PvE and PvP (Some spells do less damage, pvp talents, etc.).

I personally miss the 1 size fits all of old, that our spec/class always operated the same, regardless of what we were doing. I get it, that this makes it easier to balance but I do not like it. I think back to a conversation Ghostcrawler had:

Ghostcrawler: Yeah—Basically our philosophy is that WoW is a very complicated game, and it's the kind of game that is hard to pick up on your own without kind of a "support network" of friends to kind of show you the ropes, like "Oh no, you're doing it wrong"—

Malgayne: Or websites.

Ghostcrawler: *laughs* Yes, definitely websites. And we just think the idea of seeing (Spell #47465) with a tooltip that says "In PvE, does this. In PvP, also...slows you, or does totally different things", it gets to be really hard to remember. It's hard enough for a guy like me to remember all the spells there are in the game as it is, and once you think of everything as having two versions—and then every talent has to affect them differently, and then maybe set bonuses or trinkets or other things have to affect them differently...it just seems like a nightmare. Now you can make the other argument that trying to come up with one system of balance for both is also a nightmare, but on the other hand I think we've done pretty well—


Overall though, I'm enjoying the expansion. =)
10/11/2018 08:00 PMPosted by Astarael
Is it just me or have there been far, far more threads claiming to not continue their sub/cancel

It's about the same; it might appear to be more, but that's just a wave effect. There will be a new batch every week or so, with 200 forum-go'ers responding that they're not really leaving, 100 or so asking if they can "haz ur stoff," and maybe 3 or 4 wishing them good luck.

'Bout the same it's been over the last 10 years or so .....

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