"Dungeon finder killed the social aspect"

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11/11/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Monrith
I keep seeing that statement get thrown around from time to time but I'm calling it out.

I remember the days of pre-dungeon finder. Here's how it went:

[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*

*facerolls dungeon*

Random player: "thanks everyone"

Group disbanded.

That was it. It was virtually the same exact thing as dungeon finder with the only difference being you having to spam trade chat for 40 something minutes to form a group and having to argue with people to come summon.

It wasn't a sprawling utopia of high quality conversations where everyone are bestest friends. It was just running with randoms who were as silent back then as they are now.

If you're looking for community a guild is the way to go, same thing for back then in ye olden pre-LFD days.


Now lets come to today 2018 ..

Trade chat - LF dungeon group must have aotc from every expac, mythic rading exp with io score of 3400 and ilvl of 425. All other scrub noobs will be mercilessly mocked then ignored.

Come to forums to leave feedback of said system.

GET GUD NOOB!!! STOP WHINING ABD DEMANDING CARRIES! JOIN A GUILD BLAH BLAH BLAH ..

Takes advice and starts own group in trade.

Trade chat - LF more dungeon group. No exp needed just for fun and gear.
45 minutes later group still not formed and reported fro spamming trade chat ... SILENCED by automated system for spamming...

Sorry dude the the LFG tool is a blessing not a curse. Our society is more connected now than ever yet more disconnected than ever. The old way was for a different time my friend.
11/12/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Junò
11/12/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Sibenice
...

I'm sorry. But it's completely reasonable to expect someone to have at least looked up a fight before signing up for a raid. Especially back then where we didn't have the brain dead easy tier that was LFR. You were absolutely being lazy and difficult and expecting the people who knew what they were doing to hold your hand.


and this right here is the type of attitude that is killing the community as a whole

why bother being the community when you can shove it onto something like youtube for you instead its not "lazy" to expect help from the community thats what its suppose to be here for but again people dont want to do that they would rather not deal with you

but hey thanks for proving the point


Part of being one of the community is making things as easy as possible for the people you're grouping with. That means expecting people to know the basic mechanics before they shop up for a pug. Pugs aren't for teaching, they're for clearing. This has been the case literally since the original game when it comes to raiding (not that much pug raiding went on then). Expecting people to carry you through something is not being a good part of the community. It's being a burden.
11/12/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Sibenice
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and this right here is the type of attitude that is killing the community as a whole

why bother being the community when you can shove it onto something like youtube for you instead its not "lazy" to expect help from the community thats what its suppose to be here for but again people dont want to do that they would rather not deal with you

but hey thanks for proving the point


Part of being one of the community is making things as easy as possible for the people you're grouping with. That means expecting people to know the basic mechanics before they shop up for a pug. Pugs aren't for teaching, they're for clearing. This has been the case literally since the original game when it comes to raiding (not that much pug raiding went on then). Expecting people to carry you through something is not being a good part of the community. It's being a burden.


again thanks for proving the point

"why should the community be the community when yo ucan use google!" <-- and people ask why the community is dieing

i also fail to see how asking about information on the boss and what it does is "carrying me" seems like basic knowledge that anyone in the raid should be told about but then again your type of attitude is why the community is the way it is
11/11/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Sybianjoy
11/11/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Monrith
I keep seeing that statement get thrown around from time to time but I'm calling it out.

I remember the days of pre-dungeon finder. Here's how it went:

[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*

*facerolls dungeon*

Random player: "thanks everyone"

Group disbanded.

That was it. It was virtually the same exact thing as dungeon finder with the only difference being you having to spam trade chat for 40 something minutes to form a group and having to argue with people to come summon.

It wasn't a sprawling utopia of high quality conversations where everyone are bestest friends. It was just running with randoms who were as silent back then as they are now.

If you're looking for community a guild is the way to go, same thing for back then in ye olden pre-LFD days.


I disagree completely. LFG UIs did not kill the social aspect 100%.

Cross realms did.

People operate according to consequence. If you're a prig with no cross realms, people remember you. Because you're within the server only. Then there's an incentive to behave.

With cross realms, there's no consequence, people invite and kick you without a word.

Pugs are consequentially not humans to interact with. LFG tools were never to blame.


I've been saying this forever!
11/12/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Junò
11/12/2018 09:58 AMPosted by Sibenice
...

Part of being one of the community is making things as easy as possible for the people you're grouping with. That means expecting people to know the basic mechanics before they shop up for a pug. Pugs aren't for teaching, they're for clearing. This has been the case literally since the original game when it comes to raiding (not that much pug raiding went on then). Expecting people to carry you through something is not being a good part of the community. It's being a burden.


again thanks for proving the point

"why should the community be the community when yo ucan use google!" <-- and people ask why the community is dieing


Because you're confusing the community with personal teachers. There's a difference between deciding on a strat together and discussing the best way to do things at the start of each fight and going in blind and expecting people to hold your hand through a clear. The first one is being part of a community the second one deserves nothing but LFR.

You can claim I'm proving your point. But all you're showing is that you're not even willing to do the bare minimum that has been asked since the beginning to help out your fellow community members and make pugs the best they possibly can be. Instead you expect them to just do the work for you.
11/12/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Sibenice
11/12/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Junò
...

again thanks for proving the point

"why should the community be the community when yo ucan use google!" <-- and people ask why the community is dieing


Because you're confusing the community with personal teachers. There's a difference between deciding on a strat together and discussing the best way to do things at the start of each fight and going in blind and expecting people to hold your hand through a clear. The first one is being part of a community the second one deserves nothing but LFR.

You can claim I'm proving your point. But all you're showing is that you're not even willing to do the bare minimum that has been asked since the beginning to help out your fellow community members and make pugs the best they possibly can be. Instead you expect them to just do the work for you.


all right why should i help out anyone if there not willing to help me out eh? and once again we are back at where we started

if you cant take the 5 seconds to tell someone "dont stand in that it will kill you" than again what good is the community untill i quit raiding anytime anyone had a question about a boss i just told them i didnt waste my time or anyone else's time telling someone to go google it and it often only took me 5 to 10 mins to explain a boss to someone or multiple people if i had to do that and it made everyone happy

again what good is the community if the community isint going to help out?

tbh i dont know why im arguing about it everyone is to lazy to actually help anyone these days
Only one thing kills the social aspect of the game: Players who don’t use the most basic social skills.

I’d say 10% of players say “hi.” Less than that say “thank you” or “goodbye.” And an actual short conversation is super-rare. In chat we mostly get trolling, insults, and the occasional old joke.

Blizzard certainly should have incorporated more social tools into their game. Still, the lack of socializing in WoW is a problem the players have made. Go go go and only caring about a person’s numbers is NOT how you meet people. It requires a little time and a little work.
11/12/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Junò
11/12/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Sibenice
...

Because you're confusing the community with personal teachers. There's a difference between deciding on a strat together and discussing the best way to do things at the start of each fight and going in blind and expecting people to hold your hand through a clear. The first one is being part of a community the second one deserves nothing but LFR.

You can claim I'm proving your point. But all you're showing is that you're not even willing to do the bare minimum that has been asked since the beginning to help out your fellow community members and make pugs the best they possibly can be. Instead you expect them to just do the work for you.


all right why should i help out anyone if there not willing to help me out eh? and once again we are back at where we started

if you cant take the 5 seconds to tell someone "dont stand in that it will kill you" than again what good is the community untill i quit raiding anytime anyone had a question about a boss i just told them i didnt waste my time or anyone else's time telling someone to go google it and it often only took me 5 to 10 mins to explain a boss to someone or multiple people if i had to do that and it made everyone happy

again what good is the community if the community isint going to help out?

tbh i dont know why im arguing about it everyone is to lazy to actually help anyone these days


But you're not helping people out. You're going in blind and asking people to do all the work for you. There's a big difference between dong some research and knowing as much as you can before hand and then asking people for tips and just expecting them to do all the work for you. Because you say you don't want to have to google things but for these people to help you, they had to do that first.

If you can't take the time to be the best you can be when joining a group of random people then why should those who did put the effort in do it for you? You are the lazy one. Everyone else in that run will have done the work, you didn't.
LFD was a God send on a low pop server or server with faction skew and you're on the lower pop faction. Before then you often couldn't get the daily dungeon done due to immense tank scarcity.
11/11/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Monrith
[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*


Lol now tell it like it really was.

Monrith: "Can I get a summons now?"
You: "I am alone at the stone"
5 minutes later
Monrith: "Ok I'm here let' summon"
Healer has left the group.
I've played from vanilla to now and i can 100% it pretty much did
LFG isn't the problem cross realm is the problem and its never going to go back to the way it was, and like a lot of things cross realm had unintended negative effects but its a mmo the social fabric is the most important part of the game.

When use to play on boulderfist my first server for years in trade some guy would try to start groups and the whole server would just let it known he was a ninja and used a creepy voice changer to pretend to be a little boy lol
11/11/2018 09:04 PMPosted by Vãrick
I'll try.

11/11/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Monrith
[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*

-> Wipes

-> Doesn't get kicked because they just spent 15 minutes looking for a tank

-> They talk about it and figure out what was causing the wipe and the problem.

-> DiabloMeme joins the guild

-> DiabloMeme continues to build a relationship with the players in the group since they're all on the same server.

Both of these were potential outcomes. Your anecdote is just as valuable as mine.

My experiences were much more like yours than the OPs. But both happened for sure.
'Social aspect' in BC:

Me- /2 48 Paladin LFG!

Them- /w prot or holy?

Me- /r Ret

Them- /r lol

Them- /r really? Can you change to prot or holy?

Me- /r No, ret is all I play.

Me- /r I could get on my Rogue I guess.
{You have been blocked by [Them]}

That was the 'social aspect' back in the day. People who keep saying LFG and LFR ruined that need to get a grip. People were just as trash back then as they are now. Nothing's changed.
11/12/2018 11:40 AMPosted by Waltar

When use to play on boulderfist my first server for years in trade some guy would try to start groups and the whole server would just let it known he was a ninja and used a creepy voice changer to pretend to be a little boy lol


And I guarantee even before LFD and cross-realming he still got groups just fine in spite of his reputation.

I’ve never seen, played on, or heard of a server so small and closeknit that people were ever really held accountable enough to curtail their behavior. A handful of people might have been aware of their reputation and stayed away from them, but not enough to make a difference. That’s how they became infamous in the first place; new “victims” joining their groups every day because they didn’t know better or because they didn’t believe or heed the warnings. And servers were populated enough that they never ran out of ignorant people to run with even on the smaller servers.

I just know that pre-LFD wasn’t the magical land of accountability like people would have you believe.
11/12/2018 11:40 AMPosted by Waltar
LFG isn't the problem cross realm is the problem and its never going to go back to the way it was, and like a lot of things cross realm had unintended negative effects but its a mmo the social fabric is the most important part of the game.

When use to play on boulderfist my first server for years in trade some guy would try to start groups and the whole server would just let it known he was a ninja and used a creepy voice changer to pretend to be a little boy lol


This...so much this. I would be ecstatic for lfd if it was or could be server limited.
11/11/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Monrith
I keep seeing that statement get thrown around from time to time but I'm calling it out.

I remember the days of pre-dungeon finder. Here's how it went:

[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*

*facerolls dungeon*

Random player: "thanks everyone"

Group disbanded.

That was it. It was virtually the same exact thing as dungeon finder with the only difference being you having to spam trade chat for 40 something minutes to form a group and having to argue with people to come summon.

It wasn't a sprawling utopia of high quality conversations where everyone are bestest friends. It was just running with randoms who were as silent back then as they are now.

If you're looking for community a guild is the way to go, same thing for back then in ye olden pre-LFD days.


The difference was that back then re-queing wasn't so easy. It took time to build groups. So you wouldn't just kick someone and move on, you'd be invested in each other and explain the fights and learn together. Experienced players found it benefited themselves to teach newbs fights and give advice, a win-win. Sure this new system is more suitable for the "I've got half an hour let me queue up quick and knock out a dungeon" style of play, but it's far less robust in terms of community.

I've got several friends on my list from back in WOTLK strictly from doing 5 mans. Folks who I helped guide and were super nice and thankful, or vice versa. Folks who were very mechanically gifted so I found it benefited me to have them on my list for 5 man content. You see, in the past it behooved you to build relationships and build your friends list because that was the most reliable way to build successful groups.

Now the automated system has messed things up. It's super fast yes, but Blizz has greatly reduced the difficulty level of baseline dungeons. And they have also greatly reduced the number of challenging achievements from 5 mans so the only way to audit your group applicants in a relatively correspondent fashion is by ilvl. So they had to make content easier so you could face roll through content with your gong show of a LFG group.

Yes, social interactions were to a degree forced upon you back in the day. BUT...it prevented gong show groups from being the norm. It encouraged people to learn their classes and the game. It encouraged us to build reliable groups whether you were a raider or just a dungeon crawler.

IMO the premade group interface and LFR should be the only two group building tools in the game.
We went from forced social interaction to optional social interaction.

The forced was more plentiful but less genuine.
The optional is more rare but more genuine in the interaction.

People who are not forced into social interactions, develop more healthy relationships with their guild and friends. They are not being forced to maintain things (like level the GM's alt for a IN on the good groups) in order to just play.

The people who seek forced social interactions back are those who could effortlessly juggle it and enjoyed having the power. They want people to be forced to kiss their rear end's once more. But they will make it seem like it's about the "people".
11/12/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Margirita
We went from forced social interaction to optional social interaction.

The forced was more plentiful but less genuine.
The optional is more rare but more genuine in the interaction.

People who are not forced into social interactions, develop more healthy relationships with their guild and friends. They are not being forced to maintain things (like level the GM's alt for a IN on the good groups) in order to just play.

The people who seek forced social interactions back are those who could effortlessly juggle it and enjoyed having the power. They want people to be forced to kiss their rear end's once more. But they will make it seem like it's about the "people".


I don't think that's fully true. I mean that bit about forced interactions being less genuine is fundamentally true, but the rest I think is highly suspect.

Here's the deal, when you build the group yourself, you can be selective and you will want to be selective because the content is more difficult in that system.
Now, people are not "forced to kiss their rear ends" because groups take longer to build, so often times for the sake of efficiency the group builder will take 1-2 players who are not on the same level as them progression wise.

So now player A has just spent 15 minutes building his group, and player B has managed to squeeze into a group that more or less will "carry" him as long as he doesn't !@#$ the bed too hard. Now if the group took 15 mins to build, and you're looking at 20+ minutes of content at an absolute minimum (since content is not faceroll), all parties are motivated to make things work. Player A is less likely to boot Player B, and Player B is motivated to actually learn/try.

They are now invested in one another. Player A won't be able to easily replace player B, so he will teach/coach him. Player B may not find a non-fail group for quite some time, so he wants to learn/listen. If they both play their parts, they may find one another on their friends lists, with one more reliable homie they can run groups with. Making future runs quicker to fill, and quicker/easier to finish in over time.

There is a whole other element here of accountability, server notoriety/reputation, respect that I won't get into. But just note that there is a reason why married couples use little white lies all the time, when you are forced to live with someone else in the same space it's beneficial for all parties to keep things amicable.
Social Aspect was killed by a combination of minor things coming together, Dungeon Finder was one but not the only thing;

- Loot Sharing
- Mob Tagging
- Gutting Guild permissions
- LFR
- Sharding
- Cross-Realm content of any type / including cross-realm grouping with Group Finder

Blizzard can cement it further by removing even further motivation to interact by implementing more QoL changes if they want. You already go to LFR or random heroic and don't talk to anyone, saying "Hi" will often yield silence for the duration of the content.

Keep in mind what we had before despite having the same "jerks" in the community:

-Realm reputation, people would know of you actions be it bad or good.
-You had to interact / talk and sometimes teach people to group together and complete dungeons / raids / outdoor content together. These people would go out and form guilds.
-When people were out in the open doing quests, you would /whisper someone doing similar quests and ask them if they wanted to complete it together ( GL doing that today with strangers).

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