"Dungeon finder killed the social aspect"

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Dungeon finder is great. The problem is the required tank, healer 3 dps paradigm. they neeed to change it So diff group makeup’s are allowed and can be successful too.
11/12/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Junò
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Because you're confusing the community with personal teachers. There's a difference between deciding on a strat together and discussing the best way to do things at the start of each fight and going in blind and expecting people to hold your hand through a clear. The first one is being part of a community the second one deserves nothing but LFR.

You can claim I'm proving your point. But all you're showing is that you're not even willing to do the bare minimum that has been asked since the beginning to help out your fellow community members and make pugs the best they possibly can be. Instead you expect them to just do the work for you.


all right why should i help out anyone if there not willing to help me out eh? and once again we are back at where we started

if you cant take the 5 seconds to tell someone "dont stand in that it will kill you" than again what good is the community untill i quit raiding anytime anyone had a question about a boss i just told them i didnt waste my time or anyone else's time telling someone to go google it and it often only took me 5 to 10 mins to explain a boss to someone or multiple people if i had to do that and it made everyone happy

again what good is the community if the community isint going to help out?

tbh i dont know why im arguing about it everyone is to lazy to actually help anyone these days


Howabout I put it this way to you?

If you couldn't be bothered to read up on fights prior, why should you expect me to be bothered to teach you?

This is just plain passing the buck.

Personal initiative has gone out of the window and you're just expecting people to hold your hand.

It is this behavior of entitlement/LAZINESS that motivates the use of metrics like .io, in LFG.

It always starts with you.
Funny.... people blaming the death of "the social aspect" on anything and everything they can, while it is a well known fact that people just can't be nice to each other... period.

"The social aspect" killed "the social aspect."

Blaming it on WoW is just lame.

and no.... Making a group and going to the dungeon was not always as easy as you described, not even close. Nice try though?
Another thing you're forgetting is that pre-LFD you would often wind up grouping with the same people on the way to level cap. A lot of friendships were made as a result of people who just happened to be leveling at roughly the same pace and at about the same play times.

LFD, or more specifically cross-realm LFD, completely killed that. These days it's extremely rare to group up with the same person more than once and if you ever do you're not likely to notice it at all since you're not used to looking out for it. Other players might as well be NPC's now for all the interaction we have with each other.

I'm not saying LFD is entirely bad though. It really facilitate those times when you really want or need to run a specific dungeon during the leveling process. After all, nobody is going to want to spend two or three days trying to get a group together for Dire Maul, right? I think a reasonable compromise would be allowing us to opt-out of cross realm trade/general chat or even allow us to post groups in the group finder that are only visible to your server.
Zero downtime, button spammy rotations and not requiring CC killed the social aspect.

There is no time for talking between all of that.
So can we get M0 queues then?
11/13/2018 06:03 AMPosted by Naugi
So can we get M0 queues then?


Nah. We don't need it. Mythic 0 is successful in its current form.
11/11/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Monrith
I keep seeing that statement get thrown around from time to time but I'm calling it out.

I remember the days of pre-dungeon finder. Here's how it went:

[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*

*facerolls dungeon*

Random player: "thanks everyone"

Group disbanded.

That was it. It was virtually the same exact thing as dungeon finder with the only difference being you having to spam trade chat for 40 something minutes to form a group and having to argue with people to come summon.

It wasn't a sprawling utopia of high quality conversations where everyone are bestest friends. It was just running with randoms who were as silent back then as they are now.

If you're looking for community a guild is the way to go, same thing for back then in ye olden pre-LFD days.


You left out the "community" part that went:

"Great job, tank. I'm going to add you to my friends list."

"Thanks. You too healer. Hit me up any time."

Now it's GO GO GO and as soon as the last boss drops people drop group without saying a word, and will rarely reply to one. No GG, no "take care"... nothing.

The pace in an instance was a little slower back then. A wipe didn't typically result in drama and rage quitting. The community has advanced into the instant gratification/zero tolerance era of gaming. That doesn't lend itself to community.

I do agree that the only place to find that now is in a guild. Servers used to be like large guilds. Places where reputation had some value. Now cross server tech overlaid on every aspect of the game brings convenience along with anonymity. The people you group with you will likely never get grouped with again. Brings out the worst in people when there are no consequences for actions.
11/11/2018 09:18 PMPosted by Chrace
The social aspect was dead and buried long before launch due to you being able to solo level. This how I made most of my friends, many I still have, in vaniller EQ.

Agreed. I remember back in TBC/vanilla world quests as solo could be unbearably tedious and difficult, whereas adding a 2nd or 3rd grouped up would be so much more rewarding.

Now, its inefficient UNLESS you solo quests in the world. It is backwards.
11/11/2018 09:04 PMPosted by Vãrick
I'll try.

11/11/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Monrith
[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*


-> Wipes

-> Doesn't get kicked because they just spent 15 minutes looking for a tank

-> They talk about it and figure out what was causing the wipe and the problem.

-> DiabloMeme joins the guild

-> DiabloMeme continues to build a relationship with the players in the group since they're all on the same server.

Both of these were potential outcomes. Your anecdote is just as valuable as mine.


This was my experience in Vanilla and BC. People were more social and actually communicated. Making friends from other guilds had benefits because you could always team up and join channels together and set up a pool of people to do dungeons.
I keep seeing that statement get thrown around from time to time but I'm calling it out.

I remember the days of pre-dungeon finder. Here's how it went:

[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*

*facerolls dungeon*

Random player: "thanks everyone"

Group disbanded.

That was it. It was virtually the same exact thing as dungeon finder with the only difference being you having to spam trade chat for 40 something minutes to form a group and having to argue with people to come summon.

It wasn't a sprawling utopia of high quality conversations where everyone are bestest friends. It was just running with randoms who were as silent back then as they are now.

If you're looking for community a guild is the way to go, same thing for back then in ye olden pre-LFD days.

ummmm.... no. It really wasn't like that at all. Just the fact that you had to converse with people to organize in the first place got people talking. By the time everyone had gotten together wherever they'd agreed to meet/summon, conversation and banter had ensued, (most of the time). My longest standing friends here were met that way.

I'm not knocking LFD/R. They definitely make my life easier as I can't spend the time I used to on this game but your representation of what it was like then is just patently false.
LFD and LFR didn’t kill the social aspect of this game. Premade Group, CRZ and sharding did that.
I leveled a holy priest through dungeons before LFG was implemented. To do it efficiently, you had to constantly build and work your friends list. It took a lot of time and effort to build that friends list with like minded folks and if you took time off your friends would outlevel you or at max level no longer need the 5 man gear, which meant you had to rebuild that list from scratch.

The point is that you’re right... it took effort, but I made some great friends before LFG. That said, I’m happier with LFG, because I can spend more time doing content that I want and I can count on banging out a couple queues after work and be wrapped up in time for dinner. There are still plenty of avenues to make friends if you’re willing to put the effort into it.
You can be just as social as you want to be now, as you could before group finder.

Group finder has been nothing but a boon to the game. I don't want to spend an hour sitting in town trying to gather up 4 other people to try to do a dungeon, then travel there.

I'd much rather spend my time doing world quests, farming herbs, or doing just about anything else with my time, while the queue takes care of the group finding for me.

Especially if your a DPS class, trying to track down a tank / healer as a dps class for dungeons could take ages. 30-60 minutes sitting in town, spamming a channel waiting and not being able to do anything, compared to just queuing up for 20-40 minutes, and doing other things while waiting.

Then there's also the fact, I sometimes don't -Want- to be social with people I group up with, a lot of them are probably not people I'd get along with, but the dungeon queue finder just makes it easier to get into a dungeon, do it, and drop out, without having to care. Some people might say this cheapens the "Community" aspect of the game, however people can literally just solo level their entire way to the top, without interacting with a single person.. so I don't think that argument stands up.

Like other people have said, if you want social community, get a guild together, with people that also actually want social communities. It's not for everyone, and the idea of forcing people to have to deal with this, is just gonna hurt the player base imho
Joined BC

I remember if you were doing one of the more avoided heroics you’d be sitting in Trade for hours spamming LFG.

Never again

Social aspect has nothing to do with LFD
I enjoyed the time before group finder. Like many have said here, it helped to build relationships and reputations on the server that you belonged on. There were downsides of course, I mean, it certainly wasn't as convenient as group finder.

Spending an hour or more looking for people to run a dungeon with your and your group wasn't the most fun thing in the world and I often found myself questing or gathering in level appropriate zones (for the dungeon) while I waited for my group to fully form. This problem tended to solve itself though as people would befriend you if you had a good attitude, persevered and were somewhat competent at your role... meaning that over time you'd either be able to join a guild full of willing party members or you could have a large pool of friends to run stuff with.
11/11/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Monrith
I keep seeing that statement get thrown around from time to time but I'm calling it out.

I remember the days of pre-dungeon finder. Here's how it went:

[Trade] Monrith: "LF tank for Gundrak" x 38
DiabloMeme: "I'll join"
DiabloMeme has joined the group.
Monrith: "someone help summon plz"
DiabloMeme: "okay"

*summons*

*facerolls dungeon*

Random player: "thanks everyone"

Group disbanded.

That was it. It was virtually the same exact thing as dungeon finder with the only difference being you having to spam trade chat for 40 something minutes to form a group and having to argue with people to come summon.

It wasn't a sprawling utopia of high quality conversations where everyone are bestest friends. It was just running with randoms who were as silent back then as they are now.

If you're looking for community a guild is the way to go, same thing for back then in ye olden pre-LFD days.


You have some fair points. There is hyperbole going on about how perfect WoW was without Dungeon finder. Also it is a great WoW feature which allows you to cross realm look for people to do the same content you are. However, I think you're missing the essential link between Dungeon finder/LFR/automatic group finder and the experience people are missing from the past.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but from what I remember in terms of Vanilla vs Wrath, the punishment for failing to pull even an extra trash mob in Vanilla was much more serious than in Wrath. In Wrath you could pull extra trash in dungeons (and even raids sometimes) and be just fine. That crap wasn't happening in Vanilla unless you were two tiers above the place. I imagine some of this spawns from the massive stat increases seen from Vanilla to BFA before the item lvl squish.

With that I kind of slap you're argument of "oh dungeons are easy and it doesn't matter which 4 other people you get" in the face. Assuming I'm correct with Vanilla dungeons/raids were much more punishing than Wrath and current dungeons.

I want to keep a side note real quick and say dungeons and raids of the past were easier in terms of mechanics, but the raids of old made you pay for your mistakes in a much less forgiving manner than current WoW. There are still raid wiping mechanics in WoW, but in Vanilla even if you were level 10-59 you couldn't pull 3-4+ mobs at a time unless you were a badass mage. And those are just normal mobs... I've been able to mow down 5+ mobs at a time on my DH since I started him.

The major thing you are missing is struggle. People miss the struggle. You can see what happens in spoiled rich kids. When they get a new car for their 16th birthday (stupid MTV btw for that whole series) they don't even care. Why? No effort was given. The car was expected.

The thing you and the current WoW developers are not seeing is the importance of struggle to achieve what you want. I have to imagine you and the WoW developers have seen story lines in cartoons or comics where the hero or villain has immense power and they are bored out of their minds. One Punch Man comes to mind, but there are many others.

To be fair to the WoW developers, they probably get a lot of snowflakes which would melt under the sun rising complaining about how things are too hard. In response, Blizzard needs to understand their core audience. In a game that requires you to spend 15 a month and time dedication to, do you want the people who don't put in effort and will be gone in 2-3 months out of boredom and a weak will, or do you want the people who will invest serious time into the game and keep that 15 a month going?

I think Blizzard should go for both audiences. Make the beginning of the expansion easy, but once you start digging deep it becomes exponentially harder and the rewards follow. For those of you who played Vanilla when Molten Core was the main raid. How afraid/excited were you when you saw a Thunderfury or Rag's Hammer in the real world or in bgs? Hell even Arcanite Reapers were something to consider dangerous.

TLDR; I kinda get your point, but you're most likely wrong and overlooking the core of WoW that most people are missing. Maybe you didn't start 'till Wrath so you don't understand the past, but please prove me wrong if I am so. I'm more than glad to admit when I'm wrong and I'll adjust things accordingly.

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