Two Legions?

Story Forum
So I'm fuzzy as to how the WoD timeline affected the Burning Legion. I know it created an alternate Draenor and such, but did it also create a whole new reality with its own Burning Legion, hence a new Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, Sargeras, etc?
Only one Burning Legion. The Twisting Nether is present throughout all timelines as a constant, and tis the place the Legion dwells in.

Archimonde in WoD is our Archimonde. The Legion can't time hop to other worlds and timelines to get duplicates of themselves (even if they had time magic like the Bronzes). Even if they could, demons are a scheming backstabby lot. Wouldn't last.

Besides, divergent timelines are like ripples, they grow but eventually fade, and thus have no lasting importance on their own.
11/14/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Rothiron
Only one Burning Legion. The Twisting Nether is present throughout all timelines as a constant, and tis the place the Legion dwells in.

Archimonde in WoD is our Archimonde. The Legion can't time hop to other worlds and timelines to get duplicates of themselves (even if they had time magic like the Bronzes). Even if they could, demons are a scheming backstabby lot. Wouldn't last.

Besides, divergent timelines are like ripples, they grow but eventually fade, and thus have no lasting importance on their own.

So basically, the Draenor timeline simply faded away and had no impact on the Legion, other than giving Kil'Jaedan a new toy in the form of the new Gul'Dan?
11/14/2018 11:26 AMPosted by Dathretarian
So basically, the Draenor timeline simply faded away and had no impact on the Legion, other than giving Kil'Jaedan a new toy in the form of the new Gul'Dan?
The alternate Draenor timeline is still present, but while we've been gone from it the Draenei gone Lightbound and inadvertently began to cause the planet to become barren with unbalanced Light, and conquering the Mag'har orcs, and around that time we pop in and get the Mag'har back out and into our timeline. That world is toast no matter what now, but who knows if we'll see the Draenei get out of there and come say hello in Azeroth.

And yeah, AU Draenor was mostly useful for the Legion in getting a spare Gul'dan, who isn't a demon that exists across all multiverses as a singular entity. Apparently. Time travel is involved, it's always wibbly wobbly.
11/14/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Rothiron
Archimonde in WoD is our Archimonde. The Legion can't time hop to other worlds and timelines to get duplicates of themselves (even if they had time magic like the Bronzes). Even if they could, demons are a scheming backstabby lot. Wouldn't last.


Especially not if the duplicate is of Archimonde! They can convert any AU Archimondes into the real one yet any Archimondes that are already a Demon before the AU splintered off the old one is the MU one getting another body.

MU Archimonde of course would never permit an AU Archimonde Demon so no chance of that and if AU Archimonde is killed by MU Archimonde then AU Kil'jaeden and Velen would simply declare war on the Legion and never become a Demon either!

MU Archimonde is what keeps the AU Eredar Leaders from joining the Legion!
So Archimonde from our future, which is actually our past, is the same Archimonde we encounter in Draenor's past, and by killing him in the Nether in the past, we therein kill him across all timelines somehow. But the events of the Third War that he committed - such as the destruction of Dalaran and the attack on Nordrassil - still happened in the past in our timeline.

So even though we killed him in the past, but not our past, he still was alive in the future, but our past, to do stuff.
11/14/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Grandblade
So Archimonde from our future, which is actually our past, is the same Archimonde we encounter in Draenor's past, and by killing him in the Nether in the past, we therein kill him across all timelines somehow. But the events of the Third War that he committed - such as the destruction of Dalaran and the attack on Nordrassil - still happened in the past in our timeline.

So even though we killed him in the past, but not our past, he still was alive in the future, but our past, to do stuff.
https://youtu.be/AeEcsLG1nOU?t=6
https://youtu.be/q2nNzNo_Xps
11/14/2018 12:12 PMPosted by Rothiron
the Draenei gone Lightbound and inadvertently began to cause the planet to become barren with unbalanced Light,


This isn't confirmed. It could have also been the Orcs, or even the Legion.
11/14/2018 04:23 PMPosted by Veloran
This isn't confirmed. It could have also been the Orcs, or even the Legion.
I mean its either the Lightbound Draenei who are imperialistically conquering and forcefully converting the Orcs on possibly Xe'ra's command and suffusing the entire world with Light, the Orcs who have a direct line of communication with the elements and never seemed to cause a drought at the height of their industrialized aggression, or the Legion that we spent the following expansion after WoD fighting that was well and truly repelled from Draenor.

Occam's razor, simplest assumption is that its the Lightbound Draenei that are clearly antagonistic.
11/14/2018 04:23 PMPosted by Veloran
11/14/2018 12:12 PMPosted by Rothiron
the Draenei gone Lightbound and inadvertently began to cause the planet to become barren with unbalanced Light,


This isn't confirmed. It could have also been the Orcs, or even the Legion.


Lightbound NPC (Italic): Cease this pointless defiance, mag'har! Stand down and welcome the Light!
Mag'har NPC (Bold): Retreat while you still can! You will not force your doctrines upon us, draenei!
The High Exarch orders you to submit... or face judgment!
Enough talk! Let us be judged upon the field of battle!
For Draenor! For the mag'har!
The naaru offer us peace and order!
You mean subjugation!
Give up your hate! The Light can heal the scars of war!
Our scars are not yours to take!
This once-fertile land is now lifeless dust. That's what your hate has done!
Yrel... I have failed you...

Your High Exarch cannot save you. My people will never stop fighting until Draenor is free!
Come, champions of Azeroth. We must tell the warchief of our victory.


The Lightbound seem to indicate the declining state of Draenor is due to the Mag'har orcs over the past 35 years, and the Mag'har claim to have killed the Primals and the Breakers, i.e. Genesaurs and Magnoron. The former, at least, kept the land alive.

It doesn't make sense that the Light would make a world barren of life. It doesn't absorb life like the fel, it renews and strengthens it. It stands to reason that Draenor is dying because the Mag'har were flush with power and made war on the forces keeping the world in balance.
11/14/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Grandblade
So Archimonde from our future, which is actually our past, is the same Archimonde we encounter in Draenor's past, and by killing him in the Nether in the past, we therein kill him across all timelines somehow. But the events of the Third War that he committed - such as the destruction of Dalaran and the attack on Nordrassil - still happened in the past in our timeline.


He didn't die in the past nor did he die on Draenor. Archimonde couldn't have died in the Twisting nether, because his last act was to send Gul'dan to our universe hence why we had Legion expansion. What part of a multidimensional Legion which transcends time and cannot usually differ from one reality to the other. Kil'jaeden even repeatedly berated AU Gul'dan for the mistakes made by our Gul'dan in the novella. This was because the demons don't see the time as: Past > Present > Future. They see it as timey whimey and all realities are open to them. So the Future can exist in the present as can the past in the ever-present multidimensional sense.
I thought AU-Draenor's destruction was due to it being an alternate timeline and that it was always doomed due to Aman'thul's enforcement of a singular timeline.
11/14/2018 04:49 PMPosted by Cantaloupe
It doesn't make sense that the Light would make a world barren of life. It doesn't absorb life like the fel, it renews and strengthens it. It stands to reason that Draenor is dying because the Mag'har were flush with power and made war on the forces keeping the world in balance.

[/quote]

In the Chronicles the destruction of the MU Primals was what caused a faster decline of the planet's ability to recuperate. The Fel use plus the genocide of Farahlon the homeland of the primals was what finally caused MU Draenor to become a barren wasteland. By killing the breakers who cause earthquakes, volcanoes and otherwise natural events rejuvenates the land. I can understand where the Au Draenei can blame the AU Mag'har for this imbalance.
11/14/2018 05:00 PMPosted by Willfred
In the Chronicles the destruction of the MU Primals was what caused a faster decline of the planet's ability to recuperate. The Fel use plus the genocide of Farahlon the homeland of the primals was what finally caused MU Draenor to become a barren wasteland. By killing the breakers who cause earthquakes, volcanoes and otherwise natural events rejuvenates the land. I can understand where the Au Draenei can blame the AU Mag'har for this imbalance.
The thing is, the Primals aren't necessary for life. It's not as if their absence is what kills the planet. They probably helped spread vegetation upon their arrival, as opposed to the Breakers that sought to make the land barren, but plantlife isn't dependent on them alone.

Nagrand in Outland has remained fertile and livable decades after the planet blew up. Terrokar forest, while not exactly hospitable, is also full of plantlife. The Zangarmarsh maintained a a unique habitat of fungal flora. Even areas in the Blade's Edge Mountains have vegetation. And that plantlife remained even after the Fel corruption of the land AND Draenor going nuclear.

11/14/2018 04:49 PMPosted by Cantaloupe
It doesn't make sense that the Light would make a world barren of life. It doesn't absorb life like the fel, it renews and strengthens it. It stands to reason that Draenor is dying because the Mag'har were flush with power and made war on the forces keeping the world in balance.
But Light and Life are indeed separate forces. And in real life, over-exposure to light can damage any plants, just like watering them too much. The Primals and Breakers also weren't interested in balance themselves, but their conflict did maintain a tense form of it. And isn't it possible that the Light itself in overabundance can cause a loss of balance?

And again, the Mag'har have a direct line to the elements with shamans. If anyone is going to have any idea of what ails the land, it would be them.
11/14/2018 04:36 PMPosted by Rothiron
Occam's razor, simplest assumption is that its the Lightbound Draenei that are clearly antagonistic.


Occam's Razor would first be that the place is barren and lifeless because the Orcs killed the main propagators of life, just as the Breakers did, which resulted in a wasteland. Then, it would second be that the Legion doomed the planet back in WoD (Possibly through the corruption and subsequent destruction of Cyrukh in that timeline) exactly as Archimonde says.

This meaningless world has already succumbed to my corruption. The land itself seethes with the mark of the legion!


The Draenei are far and away the least likely candidates for being responsible.
Occam's Razor would first be that the place is barren and lifeless because the Orcs killed the main propagators of life, just as the Breakers did, which resulted in a wasteland. Then, it would second be that the Legion doomed the planet back in WoD (Possibly through the corruption and subsequent destruction of Cyrukh in that timeline) exactly as Archimonde says.

This meaningless world has already succumbed to my corruption. The land itself seethes with the mark of the legion!


The Draenei are far and away the least likely candidates for being responsible.
Except the apparent death of the "main propagators of life", followed by the fel corruption of the world, and then its prompt explosion, hasn't prevented some regions in MU Outland from not only supporting plantlife but actually having sustainable ecosystems. Neither the death of the Primals nor the presence of Legion corruption are new factors in the deterioration of Draenor's ecosystem, and in the end some regions have stabilized in Outland.

The primary new factor in the works is the fact that the Draenei have taken over and suffused everything in Light. And AU Draenor is continuing to deteriorate, unlike Outland. That's where the story is pointing. Yrel can't even counter Grom's claim that the Light is responsible.

And again. The orcs have shamans, who have a direct line of communication with the elements. If anyone is going to be the judge of what is causing the land to suffer, it would be the ones who can almost quite literally talk with the land. AU Draenor hasn't had Draenei that were corrupted, abandoned by the Light, and then communed with the elements instead. Lightforged Draenei do not have shamans or any classes that commune with nature. So its a safe bet that neither do the Lightbound.
11/14/2018 07:01 PMPosted by Rothiron
hasn't prevented some regions in MU Outland from not only supporting plantlife but actually having sustainable ecosystems.


You know full well that from the start MU Outland was never designed to take any such things into account.

Beyond that, I don't agree with your premise that because some areas of Outland are still habitable, that means the Fel unleashed on Draenor and subsequent purge of the Primals couldn't render much of the planet lifeless in just the same way. After all, we aren't told that everywhere is a wasteland, Nagrand could be in a similar state to it's MU counterpart for all we know. That doesn't mean the Primals/Fel didn't render places like Gorgrond and Tanaan barren.

The Light has no history of doing any such thing to the environment, and in fact there is precedent that it has the exact opposite effect and is highly beneficial to life. As for the Mag'har Shaman, strictly speaking with the information given in Chronicles for what Cyrukh is and how it came to be, after it's corruption and destruction on Draenor the Elements shouldn't have been in any condition to give accurate information on anything.

Moreover, there is simply no evidence that the Orcs got that idea from the Elements to begin with, it's pure conjecture.
11/14/2018 07:18 PMPosted by Veloran
You know full well that from the start MU Outland was never designed to take any such things into account.
Doesn't change anything. It's lore. Flora isn't dependent on the Primals actually living, they just help spread it.

11/14/2018 07:18 PMPosted by Veloran
Beyond that, I don't agree with your premise that because some areas of Outland are still habitable, that means the Fel unleashed on Draenor and subsequent purge of the Primals couldn't render much of the planet lifeless in just the same way. After all, we aren't told that everywhere is a wasteland, Nagrand could be in a similar state to it's MU counterpart for all we know. That doesn't mean the Primals/Fel didn't render places like Gorgrond and Tanaan barren.
You're contradicting your premise that the orcs are the ones currently responsible, as the Draenei who are forcefully mass-converting them claim. But the lingering fel corruption wouldn't be the fault of the orcs who helped fight the Legion and the Legion aligned orcs.

And we might not have word of Nagrand, but the suggestion that the world is becoming barren itself indicates that its not a problem contained to select regions. Besides, we don't have any word that Nagrand is doing fine either, and I think its more sensible to assume its in the same trouble as the rest of the world is described to be.

And does anyone have a specific quotation on the current status of the Primals in AU Draenor? Like, is Farahlon destroyed. Now I'm curious.

11/14/2018 07:18 PMPosted by Veloran
The Light has no history of doing any such thing to the environment, and in fact there is precedent that it has the exact opposite effect and is highly beneficial to life. As for the Mag'har Shaman, strictly speaking with the information given in Chronicles for what Cyrukh is and how it came to be, after it's corruption and destruction on Draenor the Elements shouldn't have been in any condition to give accurate information on anything.
Except in AU Draenor, Cyrukh was stopped before it could accomplish what its MU counterpart did. And even in the MU, it wasn't entirely successful forever as some orcs managed to restore their connection eventually. By the time we go back there, even if they were impacted by Gul'dan's shenanigans with Cyrukh (and I'm not seeing mentions of orcish shamanism being affected).

And the Light never had an opportunity to do what it appears to be doing in AU Draenor. No cultures were as devoted to it as the Draenei were, and they weren't driven by Naaru. But we do have it on good faith from the events of Legion on Argus that they're probably not as altruistic. And honestly, it makes perfect enough sense if you realize that Light and Life are not the same force, and that in real life, deserts are just full of Light but its all barren. Sunlight is a key ingredient for photosynthesis, but out of balance it will scorch your lawn on hot days.

11/14/2018 07:18 PMPosted by Veloran
Moreover, there is simply no evidence that the Orcs got that idea from the Elements to begin with, it's pure conjecture.
It's not mere conjecture. It's established lore. I didn't say that they got the idea that the Draenei are responsible from them, but again, with a direct line to the land, if they were the ones causing the issues somehow, they'd be the first ones to know.
Doesn't change anything.


It obviously does, given you're insisting that the portrayal of Outland from before the Primals were a thing is evidence that killing them off didn't affect Draenor.

Hell, the Mag'har literally have the Breakers on their side, who are instinctively driven to render the world barren of plantlife, and you really think the Orcs wiping out the Primals didn't aid in that cause?

You're contradicting your premise that the orcs are the ones currently responsible, as the Draenei who are forcefully mass-converting them claim.


I didn't say the Draenei were necessarily correct in their claims. In fact, I think it's a combination of the Legion's prior actions and the Orcs' more recent actions. But the Draenei's claims that it's the Orcs' fault, even just the current Orcs', certainly is far more supported by evidence than the Orcs' ideas of nebulous Light corruption, which we never see in practice.

And we might not have word of Nagrand, but the suggestion that the world is becoming barren itself indicates that its not a problem contained to select regions.


We really don't know the extent of the issue, but I would certainly consider the complete destruction of a once-verdant jungle to be worthy of being called a world-impacting issue.

And does anyone have a specific quotation on the current status of the Primals in AU Draenor? Like, is Farahlon destroyed. Now I'm curious.


Farahlon was probably the most major Primal occupied territory, even over Gorgrond, so I can only assume that they were destroyed there as in the MU.

Except in AU Draenor, Cyrukh was stopped before it could accomplish what its MU counterpart did.


The AU version of events is arguably worse. Sure he didn't use the Cipher or siphon it's energies into the Orcs, but it was still Fel corrupted and destroyed. Given that Cyrukh's entire existence is predicated on being the fused form of all of Draenor's Elementals, this could only have impacted them in an extremely negative fashion. Obviously this isn't explored much, just as nothing in WoD was.

And the Light never had an opportunity to do what it appears to be doing


Correction, what the Orcs say it is doing. Because in fact, we see no evidence of this Light corruption in the land at all. The only thing backing this is the Orcs' word, and frankly they're so paranoid about corruption that I'm not surprised they'd blame it on the Light.

if you realize that Light and Life are not the same force,


The Light is literally "the source of all life in the cosmos." It's stated explicitly that the Light is the spark of life inherent to all living things. It's about as primordial a life-giving force as can be imagined.

deserts are just full of Light but its all barren.


You do know that the Light and light are not the same things, like at all, right?

11/14/2018 08:03 PMPosted by Rothiron
It's not mere conjecture.


It literally is. You're taking the Orcs making the statement that it's the Draenei's fault to mean they got that idea from the Elements, which is not stated at all. It's 100% supposition on your part.

11/14/2018 08:03 PMPosted by Rothiron
if they were the ones causing the issues somehow, they'd be the first ones to know.


Because that was the case in the Rise of the Horde era, right? It's not like the Elements were completely incompetent and let the Orcs slide into using the Fel and corrupting the world with hardly a word of warning, right?

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum