Two Legions?

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The thing is, the Primals aren't necessary for life. It's not as if their absence is what kills the planet. They probably helped spread vegetation upon their arrival, as opposed to the Breakers that sought to make the land barren, but plantlife isn't dependent on them alone.

Nagrand in Outland has remained fertile and livable decades after the planet blew up. Terrokar forest, while not exactly hospitable, is also full of plantlife. The Zangarmarsh maintained a a unique habitat of fungal flora. Even areas in the Blade's Edge Mountains have vegetation. And that plantlife remained even after the Fel corruption of the land AND Draenor going nuclear.


They foster plant life and any creature who helps them do it. This is why insects and birds are allowed around them. It was the Breakers whom they despised and who they often sought war with. Once they waged war against the Arakkoa due to their Apexis weapon.

In the Chronicles it's described that with the destruction of Farahlon by the fel crazed orcs was the final stand of the sentient plant life on Draenor and at that moment plant life began to whither. In Burning Crusade you can even go to Blade's Edge Mountains and talk to Ancients there who are Primal survivors. They even talk about their kind which alludes to what WoD showed us. When the orcs destroyed the sentient plant life it just wrought a withering of plant life across the planet. Tanaan Jungle was turned into a desert not just because of the Fel, but the destruction of Primals who defended it. Same with Shadowmoon and Gorgrond. Kill the protectors of the plant life. The spreading of the Fel's damage goes unresisted and unabated.

Just because Terokkar and Nagrand has some plant life doesn't mean that it's not a shell of the lush plant life which existed on Draenor before the rise of the Horde. Luckily some Botaani survived and came to the MU. If these Botaani are wise they will align with one of the mortal races. Same for the Saberon. Stormwind had a genesaur die right above the city and with it's death a possibility for their resurrection as an allied race.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Evergrove

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Little_Embers

"Northeast of here, on the plateau above us lies the burnt ashes of my ancient home. A great wood flourished there before the Burning Legion sent their imps to burn us away. So many died that even centuries later my tired old heart hungers for revenge. There are too many of them for us to ever reclaim the land, but you could make them afraid. Surely you will help me?" Mosswood the Ancient
11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
It obviously does, given you're insisting that the portrayal of Outland from before the Primals were a thing is evidence that killing them off didn't affect Draenor.
Killing them off very well probably affected Draenor. But it did not render it completely unable to host plantlife. Just as they weren't necessary for plantlife on Azeroth. If you think that is a plothole, take it up with Blizzard.

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
Hell, the Mag'har literally have the Breakers on their side, who are instinctively driven to render the world barren of plantlife, and you really think the Orcs wiping out the Primals didn't aid in that cause?
We talking about the Gronn and ogres? The Gronn seem pretty domesticated right now, and are far from the primordial forces that wanted to render the land barren by nature anyway (hence why the current Breakers in MU Outland don't have a GPS pointing them to wipe out Nagrand). Ogres are probably the same as orcs, they benefit from plantlife in the world.

By the way, it's important to note that the Primals aren't simply interested in the maintenance of plantlife on Draenor. They want to cover the entire thing with it. And considering their hostility to the local wildlife that's not Breakers, as well as their attempt to infiltrate Azeroth to spread, leaving them unchecked would be equally bad for us. It all comes back to balance.

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
I didn't say the Draenei were necessarily correct in their claims. In fact, I think it's a combination of the Legion's prior actions and the Orcs' more recent actions. But the Draenei's claims that it's the Orcs' fault, even just the current Orcs', certainly is far more supported by evidence than the Orcs' ideas of nebulous Light corruption, which we never see in practice.
Evidence that you really need to dig for, is not made very clear by the story itself, and comes on the heel of the revelation that Naaru like Xe'ra might not be as entirely benevolent as we've had reason to believe.

Hell, a lot of your position is mostly assumptions rather than any concrete data points.

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
We really don't know the extent of the issue, but I would certainly consider the complete destruction of a once-verdant jungle to be worthy of being called a world-impacting issue.
Then Nagrand (the traditional heartland of Orcish culture and curiously not the place they're falling back to) is probably being affected, no?

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
Farahlon was probably the most major Primal occupied territory, even over Gorgrond, so I can only assume that they were destroyed there as in the MU.
...But do you have a quotation about it like I was asking?

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
The AU version of events is arguably worse. Sure he didn't use the Cipher or siphon it's energies into the Orcs, but it was still Fel corrupted and destroyed. Given that Cyrukh's entire existence is predicated on being the fused form of all of Draenor's Elementals, this could only have impacted them in an extremely negative fashion. Obviously this isn't explored much, just as nothing in WoD was.
Except the Orcs weren't using fel magic as extensively in the AU Draenor, so the circumstances leading to Cyrukh's rise are evidently different. Regardless, the connection being severed was prevented, and even if the elements were weakened by Cyrukh's demise, given the time-skip (which ends with Grom having gray hair which he never showed in the MU), the elements would've obviously had time to recuperate, maybe gain new leadership. The notion that despite Cyrukh being stopped in an AU with radically different circumstances than his MU counterpart somehow still accomplishing the goal of severing the orc's connection to the elements... well, it seems like the sort of conjecture you accuse me of.

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
Correction, what the Orcs say it is doing. Because in fact, we see no evidence of this Light corruption in the land at all. The only thing backing this is the Orcs' word, and frankly they're so paranoid about corruption that I'm not surprised they'd blame it on the Light.
We see a land clearly parched and dying, and the sky and air don't have any fel tints to them or industrial smog and ash. Knowing that the orcs haven't been indulging in any fel magic, there are no more warlocks, you'd probably have a lot of space to combat whatever lingering corruption there is in Tanaan, and at best you can say that the alleged destruction of the Primals stopped the speedy propagation of flora, but that alone isn't killing any flora. They're probably just putting two and two together in thinking its the Draenei that have seriously ramped up their military presence and aggression at just coincidentally the time that the world seems to be declining in health.

It's very telling that Yrel has only the Orcs "hate" as a possible cause, and nothing to dissuade Grom from his accusations that its probably the Light causing the desiccation of the land. Again, the Draenei have no shamans in this timeline, so they're not the experts on the matter. The Orcs are.

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
The Light is literally "the source of all life in the cosmos." It's stated explicitly that the Light is the spark of life inherent to all living things. It's about as primordial a life-giving force as can be imagined.
Take issue with the cosmology chart at the beginning of the Chronicle books then that lists "Life" at the 8 O'clock position to the left of Light. And even if Light came first, the Chronicle book states very clearly that Light and Shadow cannot exist without one or the other. Life as we know comes after Shadow emerges from Light, and then clashed, causing the universe as the characters know to form.

A lot of the things you take issue with is by Blizzard's design, man. I'm just the messenger.

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
You do know that the Light and light are not the same things, like at all, right?
I'm using real world forces to make a point, an analogy if you would. Sunlight is vital for plant life to grow, but in overabundance without other factors (such as water) it can harm.

Alignment wise, Light is definitely closer to Life than Shadow or Void, but its distinct. It can heal, but in the same form it can burn and sear, whereas Life magic tends to do harm more indirectly (entangling vines for instance). It's also intriguingly next to Fel and Disorder as well. Food for thought.

It literally is. You're taking the Orcs making the statement that it's the Draenei's fault to mean they got that idea from the Elements, which is not stated at all. It's 100% supposition on your part.
No, I'm saying that if the orcs were responsible for the world's trouble, they'd be the first ones to actually know it. Because they can literally talk with the earth. The supposition that they got the idea that the Draenei are responsible from the elements is entirely your own invention of my arguments, not my actual argument.

11/14/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Veloran
Because that was the case in the Rise of the Horde era, right? It's not like the Elements were completely incompetent and let the Orcs slide into using the Fel and corrupting the world with hardly a word of warning, right?
Since there's no Kil'jaeden impersonating anyone of import to the orcs and intercepting the phone calls? Yes. Natch.
11/14/2018 09:32 PMPosted by Willfred
They foster plant life and any creature who helps them do it. This is why insects and birds are allowed around them. It was the Breakers whom they despised and who they often sought war with. Once they waged war against the Arakkoa due to their Apexis weapon.
They also apparently abduct orcs and such and convert them into soldiers.

An issue with the Primals is that, unchecked, they would wreak an equally disastrous outcome as the breakers, a verdant and hostile jungle with living plants. Full of life, yes, but wild and untamed and dangerous to any civilized living, apart from the Primals perhaps. It's pretty telling that we have to work to stop some of them trying to make their way into our own world.

11/14/2018 09:32 PMPosted by Willfred
In the Chronicles it's described that with the destruction of Farahlon by the fel crazed orcs was the final stand of the sentient plant life on Draenor and at that moment plant life began to whither. In Burning Crusade you can even go to Blade's Edge Mountains and talk to Ancients there who are Primal survivors. They even talk about their kind which alludes to what WoD showed us. When the orcs destroyed the sentient plant life it just wrought a withering of plant life across the planet. Tanaan Jungle was turned into a desert not just because of the Fel, but the destruction of Primals who defended it. Same with Shadowmoon and Gorgrond. Kill the protectors of the plant life. The spreading of the Fel's damage goes unresisted and unabated.

Just because Terokkar and Nagrand has some plant life doesn't mean that it's not a shell of the lush plant life which existed on Draenor before the rise of the Horde. Luckily some Botaani survived and came to the MU. If these Botaani are wise they will align with one of the mortal races. Same for the Saberon. Stormwind had a genesaur die right above the city and with it's death a possibility for their resurrection as an allied race.
AU Draenor has a distinct advantage over the classic. Fel use had been far less prolific and widespread as it was in the MU. Putting aside the concentrated fel lava in Tanaan, which could be contained by shamans and light users mending the land (also something that couldn't be done in the MU), you could make an argument that AU Draenor wouldn't have been impacted as much as Outland was.

And Nagrand seems far less worse for wear than other regions of the world, probably owing to the distance fel users kept from it. Keeping in mind that it also survived a cataclysmic sundering of its world, you could probably make a case that any diminishment in flora is due to the destruction of Draenor rather than lingering fel corruption left unchecked by the Primals' absence.

11/14/2018 09:32 PMPosted by Willfred
"Northeast of here, on the plateau above us lies the burnt ashes of my ancient home. A great wood flourished there before the Burning Legion sent their imps to burn us away. So many died that even centuries later my tired old heart hungers for revenge. There are too many of them for us to ever reclaim the land, but you could make them afraid. Surely you will help me?" Mosswood the Ancient
Wait... centuries? But Draenor wasn't destroyed for even one century... Even accounting for Twisting Nether relativity, Garrosh was only an adult by TBC's time. What!?
Killing them off very well probably affected Draenor.


You're ignoring my point, which is that Outland as it was designed did not account for the existence/importance of the Primals. As has been noted, it was retconned in that the Primal's destruction heavily contributed to Draenor's desiccation.

We talking about the Gronn and ogres?


Gronn, Ogron, and Goren. All of them have that same instinctive drive to lay waste to plantlife.

(hence why the current Breakers in MU Outland don't have a GPS pointing them to wipe out Nagrand).


Again, you're using the old portrayal of Outland from before that became the lore.

It all comes back to balance.


Which the Orcs' helped throw out the window. I never said the Primals were goody-two-shoes, I said the Orcs wiping them out contributed to the desolation of nature.

Evidence that you really need to dig for,


It's evidence that actually exists. Which is more than can be said than the pure he said/she said of the Orcs.

Then Nagrand (the traditional heartland of Orcish culture and curiously not the place they're falling back to) is probably being affected, no?


Maybe, you'll note that even MU Outland Nagrand is heavily deforested compared to AU Nagrand. Even if they're at the same level now, that's still a big impact.

...But do you have a quotation about it like I was asking?


We bested the primals. We will bring down any foe.

"I miss the botani.
When you roasted them just right, they were DELICIOUS.
<Lasha wipes a trickle of drool from her lips.>"


So, the Primals were "bested" and the Botani are "missed". That certainly means they're very scarce, which does not jive with their homeland still thriving.

Except the Orcs weren't using fel magic as extensively in the AU Draenor, so the circumstances leading to Cyrukh's rise are evidently different.


Gul'dan and his Fel Horde was in full swing by that point though.

Regardless, the connection being severed was prevented,


That depends on how. In the MU it's power was directly infused into the Orcs, while in the AU that failed. IE, if it was this that caused the Elements to fully spurn the Orcs, on top of them being driven crazy and being gravely weakened, that means the latter could happen without the former.

still accomplishing the goal of severing the orc's connection to the elements...


I didn't say that's what happened. I'm saying what's happening on Draenor was probably do to a conflux of issues, one of which is the Elements getting BTFO by Cyrukh's corruption and destruction. That doesn't mean the Orcs were severed from the Elements like in the MU.

We see a land clearly parched and dying, and the sky and air don't have any fel tints to them or industrial smog and ash.


The Orcs have heavily industrialized in the timeskip following WoD, and wiped out the Primals on top of that. Weakened Elements, over-exploitation of the land, lingering Fel corruption (As Archi says the land has already succumbed), are all good reasons for the world to be screwed over.

and at best you can say that the alleged destruction of the Primals stopped the speedy propagation of flora, but that alone isn't killing any flora.


How do you think they beat the Primals? In the MU the Orcs did it by outright burning down the forests. Even if they didn't in the AU, that still leaves a bunch of flora that has evolved to be reliant on the Botani and Primals for propagation, meaning they die off, meaning things reliant on those die off, meaning the whole chain is destabilized. You talked about balance before, and it was the Orcs that destroyed that balance.

and nothing to dissuade Grom from his accusations that its probably the Light causing the desiccation of the land.


Again, there is absolutely no evidence of this outside of the Orcs' word. And again, the Mag'har are absolutely insane, and corruption-paranoid.

Take issue with the cosmology chart at the beginning of the Chronicle books then that lists "Life" at the 8 O'clock position to the left of Light. And even if Light came first, the Chronicle book states very clearly that Light and Shadow cannot exist without one or the other. Life as we know comes after Shadow emerges from Light, and then clashed, causing the universe as the characters know to form.

A lot of the things you take issue with is by Blizzard's design, man. I'm just the messenger.


Dude, everything I was quoting there came from Chronicles. Light and Void clashing created the universe, but it specifically says that it was shards of Light which coalesced to create life in the cosmos, and which is the "spark of life" in all living beings.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with Blizzard I guess? They're the ones that wrote it in.

I'm using real world forces to make a point, an analogy if you would.


It's kind of a poor analogy, considering that a super suffusion of Light into a living being is known to make said being immortal, not shrivel up like a tomato in the sun. If anything, that's the ultimate expression of the Light's life-giving power, to make a being's life infinite. Meanwhile, this is how a Druid's power is described in A Good War:

The power of nature was not found in the swing of a fist or the slice of a blade. It was found when a forest was rent to dust by fire and yet returned in only a few years. It was found when a mighty city was claimed by overgrowth after being abandoned for a decade.

It was found in a thousand generations of predator and prey, which lived and hunted by the instincts of their ancestors.

In the hands of a druid, that power could be condensed from centuries into a minute.


The Light frankly seems like a more primordial and powerful source of life-energy than Druidic nature/life magic.

No, I'm saying that if the orcs were responsible for the world's trouble, they'd be the first ones to actually know it. Because they can literally talk with the earth. The supposition that they got the idea that the Draenei are responsible from the elements is entirely your own invention of my arguments, not my actual argument.


The bolded section of your argument naturally implies the italicized section of the argument, because it insists that the Elements can tell the Orcs what is wrong. In this case, supposedly, the Light and Draenei.

11/14/2018 10:05 PMPosted by Rothiron
Since there's no Kil'jaeden impersonating anyone of import to the orcs and intercepting the phone calls? Yes. Natch.


You're misremembering the situation. Kil'jaeden impersonated and blocked communication with the ancestors. The Orcs were capable of calling on the Elements well into their corruption, and rather than ever telling the Orcs that they were screwing up, corrupting the land and themselves, and harming the Elements, the Elements just cut them off and stopped accepting the Orcs' calls.

The Elements really are just that fickle and useless. I wouldn't even begin to trust them to accurately tell the Orcs anything about what was wrong with the environment. Not that there's any evidence that conversation ever even happened to begin with anyway.

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