New kill command trait on a surv hunter.

Hunter
10/21/2018 11:26 AMPosted by Phenomenaut
Survival is a well-designed spec at this point simply because it plays well.

Everyone still on the “but mah class fantasy” SV hate train is just being stubborn or clueless. The old SV spec is never coming back.


Yeah but they should just delete bm and surv and that way marks is always good. tks.
10/21/2018 03:46 AMPosted by Frozh
10/20/2018 10:11 PMPosted by Bepples
...

Melee SV can't get its own identity so it has to hijack BM's.


Damn, dude. Do you EVER get it a rest? We get it - you don't like melee Survival. Move the hell on already.


Dude is a psychopath. Can you block people on the forums?
10/22/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Gunshy
10/21/2018 03:46 AMPosted by Frozh
...

Damn, dude. Do you EVER get it a rest? We get it - you don't like melee Survival. Move the hell on already.


Dude is a psychopath. Can you block people on the forums?
Top right corner of the post, click on it and use Ignore User. You'll that they posted, but you have to click on View Post to see it.
10/21/2018 03:46 AMPosted by Frozh
Move the hell on already.


How about no?

10/21/2018 11:26 AMPosted by Phenomenaut
Everyone still on the “but mah class fantasy” SV hate train is just being stubborn or clueless. The old SV spec is never coming back.


Being melee is still a huge and pressing issue. Look at the spec's continually bad representation. Look at how much development time is being wasted trying to make melee Hunters work when it just isn't working.

If it has a good playstyle, great! Why are we then hindering it by continuing with the melee design which a) is not even an important part of the spec's identity anymore, and b) is not an important part of what makes the playstyle apparently so good? Would its playstyle suddenly be worse if the grand total of 2 remaining rotational abilities became ranged tomorrow? Because its identity and standing with the playerbase would certainly be a lot better, so I'm just here asking "what are we waiting for"? It's clear Blizzard is not holding the spec's melee mechanics as a strong point; why else did they cut them down to the minimum in BfA?

As for the old SV "never coming back", that could be true. It was also a stronger argument that the spec would never become melee in the first place before that change happened. The spec never lacked a ranged weapon in the past and had a pretty vibrant playerbase. All it took was a change in staff, really. What makes you think melee SV is immune from the same sort of shift? It was already heavily revised in a compromise towards ranged gameplay after just 1 expansion and it has been nothing but the biggest class design time/cost sink in the game so far. Class design is always in flux. And even if it never gets back to fully ranged it's always worth discussing it because it will always be a notable issue.

10/22/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Gunshy
Dude is a psychopath. Can you block people on the forums?


mrw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmyJ1RVfnPE

Also, when you block me, try to commit to it. Don't be like Whim and do something weak like reading and responding to them through other people's quotes. It's really silly.
I personally love the Survival playstyle because you can pick and choose when to play melee or ranged. Or course you'll need to use melee attacks to optimize dps, but you can still maintain pressure and/or dps at ranged if mechanics or situations require it. I really connect with this playstyle and I feel like it is a really good fit for me So I really don't want to see it change.

Though I've never played Survival prior to Legion, I can sympathize with the people who prefer the ranged Survival, but I don't foresee any reversion to thay because the current spec seems very popular.
Can we never have any conversation about anything without it turning into a surv hate, surv vs bm, or old surv was better junk thread?
10/23/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Jinn
I personally love the Survival playstyle because you can pick and choose when to play melee or ranged. Or course you'll need to use melee attacks to optimize dps, but you can still maintain pressure and/or dps at ranged if mechanics or situations require it. I really connect with this playstyle and I feel like it is a really good fit for me So I really don't want to see it change.


I can respect that, but I struggle to understand it. If being able to apply pressure at range is what makes it good... what makes it better than being... you know... a ranged spec? It seems Survival has a weak focus on both ranged and melee while other specs in the game have a full focus on either of them.

10/23/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Jinn
I don't foresee any reversion to thay because the current spec seems very popular.


Popular compared to Legion, sure. But it still has very poor representation. The only saving grace is that it can say "at least it's better than Marksmanship". True, but Marksmanship has at least demonstrated in the past that it can have good representation. Melee Survival has not. It's always been varying degrees of "bad".

Also, when the decision to make SV melee was made, ranged SV was one of the most popular specs in the game. Sure didn't forsee a major remake let alone a full replacement coming back then as what we had was working really, really well. So it's hard to see melee SV as "safe forever". As far as I'm concerned, if ranged SV wasn't safe despite 4 expansions of consistent and successful design, no spec in the game is safe. We really are at the whims of overly-eager, inexperienced class designers like Celestalon.
10/23/2018 05:41 PMPosted by Greazzy
Can we never have any conversation about anything without it turning into a surv hate, surv vs bm, or old surv was better junk thread?

you could stick to the shaman thread
10/23/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Jinn
I don't foresee any reversion to thay because the current spec seems very popular.
A lot of the reason it became melee was for some kind of spec diversity and feel. I can see it be revised again but only in ways that further separate it from its BM similarities and not in ways that make it similar to how it played pre legion i.e. in ways that would still not satisfy people asking for ranged SV.
Killing a spec is a controversial decision.
Generally you should only do something like that when absolutely necessary.

It wasn't.

Wether you liked the old or 2 new versions of Survival is irrelevant to the outcomes of that arbitrary choice:

Creating an angry rift in the class community that has lasted years.

Many angry players feeling screwed by Blizzard for no real reason other than because they could.

Designing a melee spec so poorly received that it necessitated an immediate rebuild for BfA (same team that built legion Demo, so lol no surprise).

Polishing their legion turd for BfA eating Hunter class development time (the only explanation for Marks launching as a broken dead spec imaginable).

Iconic ranged Survival abilities like Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Lock n Load, Improved Serpent Sting, etc not being used by Marks (either broken or absent completely, aside from LnL as a shadow of it's former self).

More melee specs than ranged specs in the game now in a melee unfriendly raid design style (13 melee vs 11 ranged now).

14 years adding 5 melee and removing a range spec.

Hunters bored of shooting can swing a 2 hander without specing arms/fury/unholy/ret and melee in general without specing enh/feral/sin/sub/outlaw/frost/ww/havoc.
And 2 handed melee with a pet while watching dots without specing Unholy.

Ultimately there have been far more negative results than positive ones.
Who knows what they will do in the future?

I know if raptor strike and carve were explosive shot and multishot I'd play survival right now...because the things they had to add to melee survival to make it more fun and attractive as a spec are all the things that would have made ranged survival even better than it was.
10/24/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Synonym
Killing a spec is a controversial decision.
Generally you should only do something like that when absolutely necessary.

It wasn't.

Wether you liked the old or 2 new versions of Survival is irrelevant to the outcomes of that arbitrary choice:

Creating an angry rift in the class community that has lasted years.

Many angry players feeling screwed by Blizzard for no real reason other than because they could.

Designing a melee spec so poorly received that it necessitated an immediate rebuild for BfA (same team that built legion Demo, so lol no surprise).

Polishing their legion turd for BfA eating Hunter class development time (the only explanation for Marks launching as a broken dead spec imaginable).

Iconic ranged Survival abilities like Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Lock n Load, Improved Serpent Sting, etc not being used by Marks (either broken or absent completely, aside from LnL as a shadow of it's former self).

More melee specs than ranged specs in the game now in a melee unfriendly raid design style (13 melee vs 11 ranged now).

14 years adding 5 melee and removing a range spec.

Hunters bored of shooting can swing a 2 hander without specing arms/fury/unholy/ret and melee in general without specing enh/feral/sin/sub/outlaw/frost/ww/havoc.
And 2 handed melee with a pet while watching dots without specing Unholy.

Ultimately there have been far more negative results than positive ones.
Who knows what they will do in the future?

I know if raptor strike and carve were explosive shot and multishot I'd play survival right now...because the things they had to add to melee survival to make it more fun and attractive as a spec are all the things that would have made ranged survival even better than it was.
If you are still angry, go seek professional help. To hold your anger in for years is not healthy. And at this point all of these angry people are making the forums worse. It's fine to disagree with others, to take to the point that others are not happy to be on the same forum as you is completely different. To search out threads to beat the same dead horse and to only search out threads to beat the same dead horse is not good. Did did the loss of a popular spec suck, yes, like a black hole. Should I be angry over it this far into the second expansion since it happened? No, and neither should anyone else.
10/24/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Synonym
Polishing their legion turd for BfA eating Hunter class development time (the only explanation for Marks launching as a broken dead spec imaginable).


This is actually a really good point that often gets forgotten. Survival has become a huge development time sink. With the 7.0 remake, the maintenance changes throughout that expansion, and then the 8.0 almost-remake, it's been changed the most out of any Hunter spec (and any spec in general) and that's right after 4 expansions of having a pretty consistent core design. It's a lot of effort being spent trying to make a niche concept and I do think it's taking away from other problem areas.

10/24/2018 03:45 PMPosted by Whim
Should I be angry over it this far into the second expansion since it happened?


Yes, because it's still a design issue that is negatively affecting people's enjoyment of the class. Bad decisions don't suddenly stop being bad given enough time and acting like certain issues are off limits for that reason is pretty asinine and defeatist.

You might see it as a waste of time but understand why others don't; although, let's be honest, your real goal here is to shut down discussion that's negative towards melee SV.
What trait?
10/24/2018 04:19 PMPosted by Olluul
What trait?

Dire Consequences Beast Mastery: Kill Command deals X additional damage, and has a chance to summon a Dire Beast. Survival: Kill Command deals (slightly less) additional damage, and has a chance to summon a Dire Beast.
10/24/2018 03:45 PMPosted by Whim
Should I be angry over it this far into the second expansion since it happened?


People get crazy hateful about American presidents, doesn't matter which party or what they do or if the crazy hateful people are even Americans. It's just part of being people. It's worse when there is emotional attachment to something.

New Coke performed better in blind taste tests than Original Coke. But New Coke failed as a concept because people felt it "wasn't Coke".

Ranged Survival was the mid point between the BM and MM mechanics and fantasies. It's what allowed the only ranged weapon class in the game to be both insanely popular and always viable. Remove the middle ground and you force people to extremes which gives them more to dislike. Then you end up with situations with only 1 really viable alternative pushing everyone into the other option whether they like it or not.

That doesn't mean that BFA Survival is bad. It simply suffers from the same issue as Legion Survival that even Ion admits to knowing: Hunter players want to be Ranged. Melee players have 12 DPS options and 6 tank options. The spec was not made for Hunter players and being limited to 2 single options continually makes players unhappy.
10/24/2018 04:53 PMPosted by Cognyack
10/24/2018 03:45 PMPosted by Whim
Should I be angry over it this far into the second expansion since it happened?


People get crazy hateful about American presidents, doesn't matter which party or what they do or if the crazy hateful people are even Americans. It's just part of being people. It's worse when there is emotional attachment to something.
Most of those people need professional help as well. I did not hate Obama, I hated his policies the poor results from those policies. I hate Trump's personality, but the economy is a better place and we have better trade deals with other nations than we have before as well as making Desh a lot smaller.

10/24/2018 04:53 PMPosted by Cognyack
New Coke performed better in blind taste tests than Original Coke. But New Coke failed as a concept because people felt it "wasn't Coke".
It wasn't Coke. They handled that add campaign poorly. Plus that anger didn't last too long and Coke listened. Blizzard didn't. Then again, it's been a couple of years.

10/24/2018 04:53 PMPosted by Cognyack
Ranged Survival was the mid point between the BM and MM mechanics and fantasies. It's what allowed the only ranged weapon class in the game to be both insanely popular and always viable. Remove the middle ground and you force people to extremes which gives them more to dislike. Then you end up with situations with only 1 really viable alternative pushing everyone into the other option whether they like it or not.
While I openly and freely admit that Blizzard was completely clueless in SV and the Class in general, it's also brought people to the Class. There is no reason to attack the players, or to tell those of us who enjoy the Spec to leave it because someone is irrationally angered at something we did not do.

10/24/2018 04:53 PMPosted by Cognyack
That doesn't mean that BFA Survival is bad. It simply suffers from the same issue as Legion Survival that even Ion admits to knowing: Hunter players want to be Ranged. Melee players have 12 DPS options and 6 tank options. The spec was not made for Hunter players and being limited to 2 single options continually makes players unhappy.
No, not all of the issues remain. Mechanically the Spec is in a much better place. Damage dealt, it's in a much better place. To keep up that Hunters want to be ranged when it's doing better than one of our Ranged Specs is also disingenuous. It's growing, it's got it's niche in our community, why should we have to deal with those who keep hold of their rage?
What they need to do is create a 4th spec identical to survival.

Make raptor strike raptor shot. Make carve ,carve shot.

Then change wing clip to concussive shot and give them 3 sec interrupt but from range..

Those that wanna melee can those that want to play a good hunter range spec can.

This would take absolutely minimal effort. Those are literally the only changes you need to make to make survival ranged.
10/19/2018 09:26 PMPosted by Mofuggas
BM focus generator tics in the hundreds and gives a joke buff.

Survival focus generator hits for 10k as a ranged attack and spawns a dire beast.

Balance

bm is really good at utility still, if you have a smart healer you guys can wear people down emotionally lol
I stopped being angry about the death of my archer spec a couple months into Legion when I stopped playing Wow.
It was clear the decision had stuck for the expansion, and my 2nd choice spec enh had no spot on the raid team due to dh, surv etc crowding out melee spots.

But when BfA came out, I wanted to play it...as an archer.
And the time wasted trying to make Survival better had left Marks ignored.

So the death of ranged survival in Legion was upsetting and killed half the archer choices.
Doubling down on their mistake has nearly killed the other archer spec.

The class now has been reduced to 2 melee specs, one just stands a little farther away.

Blizzard's actions reopened those wounds by refusing to make the only archer left a development priority.
Likely this will continue to occur for years of WoW's future any time Marks is in the toilet.

Denying a class half their options to add a 13th choice to the game is just a ridiculously bad call.
10/25/2018 04:25 AMPosted by Synonym
I stopped being angry about the death of my archer spec a couple months into Legion when I stopped playing Wow.
It was clear the decision had stuck for the expansion, and my 2nd choice spec enh had no spot on the raid team due to dh, surv etc crowding out melee spots.

But when BfA came out, I wanted to play it...as an archer.
And the time wasted trying to make Survival better had left Marks ignored.

So the death of ranged survival in Legion was upsetting and killed half the archer choices.
Doubling down on their mistake has nearly killed the other archer spec.

The class now has been reduced to 2 melee specs, one just stands a little farther away.

Blizzard's actions reopened those wounds by refusing to make the only archer left a development priority.
Likely this will continue to occur for years of WoW's future any time Marks is in the toilet.

Denying a class half their options to add a 13th choice to the game is just a ridiculously bad call.
If you stopped being angry, there would be no wounds to reopen though.

ETA getting mad over MM being put in the hole that it's in is different, and something new as long as it's dissociated from SV.

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