LFR - Lets talk compromise.

General Discussion
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10/21/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Lemres
10/21/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Fedandalrian
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Shouldn't raiding feel special. Shouldn't raiding be an achievement. Shouldn't there be at least some content in the game that is exclusive the best of players. Mythic is just a reskin of LFR. Like mounts, a reskin may look cool, but someone can get another version in an easier way.


You get an achievement and a title to boast around.


An achievement that nobody will check, and a title that is up for grabs after the raid becomes obsolete.
10/21/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Jalen
An achievement that nobody will check

Unless you're the achievement police.

WOOP WOOP
10/21/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Jalen
10/21/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Lemres
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You get an achievement and a title to boast around.


An achievement that nobody will check, and a title that is up for grabs after the raid becomes obsolete.


I personally think that the title and/or the achievement should be "Feat of Strength" on the next expansion.
10/21/2018 03:56 AMPosted by Zirà
Nice deflection.

Not a deflection, because what you think dictates how you view the entire discussion and proves how toxic or not toxic the discussion is.

Absolutely a deflection from your agenda.

I don't need to speak for you when your words already demonstrate which side of the fence you're on. Not that that has anything to do with you calling someone who disagrees with the OP toxic simply because they think the position is ridiculous. But go on, pretend you're on the side of people who want the status quo to remain exactly as it is. Because you're either on that side or you're on the OP's side and from what you wrote you're not siding with the former.

I'm on the pro lfr side. I advocate for increased rewards that are relevant to those doing lfr. 340 gear is nothing. They will be outdated within days or at the most weeks. Gold, Augment Runes, AP and transmog are tangible rewards that stick with the player throughout tiers and in some cases between expansions (the gold mostly).

Giving more tangible rewards to those who use it as a main source of entertainment benefits not only them, but encourages the soft cores to fully integrate lfr into their weekly routine. Then queues are faster for dps, tanks and healers alike because more people of all specs are playing it.

You're into removing access to usable gear for people who need usable gear and replacing them with vanity items you would like for yourself.

My belief is to do away with the transient 340 garbo items that higher level players dont care that you get, and in a week you also dont care that you get. And instead enhance the experience so more people do it at all levels of play.

But you cant see that can you? You see anything other then being left alone in your hole as taking your stuff. So you lash out and make strawmen of everyone you view as an "other" regardless of if they are suggesting something for your benefit. That's why I say the well is toxic, you made a strawman out of my argument, just like how that other guy made a strawman of op.

Are you clueless or think you're being disingenuous and clever?

What you're doing is removing access to gear from new characters who need that gear, because YOU don't need that gear, in order to turn LFR into a loot pinata for elitists like you.

How is that not being anti-LFR?
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Simply stated, it's just content.

I raid because I like doing things with my friends in my guild.

The gear is irrelevant. Gear comes, gear goes. The only things that last are the cosmetic rewards. The xmog sets, the mounts, the titles. Which, conveniently enough, mostly drop in Normal/Heroic/Mythic content.

Another thing for you to consider: LFR is the Dev's main focus when it comes to Raid content. The basis for Uldir was the LFR version, which was then tuned upward with new mechanics added for Normal and Heroic and Mythic.

And, they've said before that without LFR there'd be no Raid content. Without LFR, it's just not viable to make Raid content for the tiny fraction of players that Raid beyond LFR.

So, people advocating for the removal of LFR, or any change that'd diminish LFR's importance, are actually advocating for the diminishing and removal of the entirety of WoW Raid content.

In short, people think that High End Raiding is all that matters, whereas Blizzard sees High End Raiding as far less important and LFR is their main concern.


While I don't disagree with the facts you state here, I think the heart of the problem people like myself have with LFR is the philosophy shift by the developers from making a game that encouraged (and required) community building, to a game that encouraged solo play.


i miss something. back in day their was no ciumminty for raiding. There was a community for people doing other things. lots of peopel got togather for farming and such. But in raiding you either had to know someone to repersent you or do trails. Trails usally took 2 months. most did not get a spot after that. Most of the riaidng guilds had a inner click to top that off. it was hard to get inside that. I dont remember any commuity building. i remeber being called a scrub alot. Because of my gear.

The game for most part started to cater to signle player when there was not enough people doing just normal dungeon. If you remeber walking to one. Then having to run it. most of it was work. LFD was a answer to that problem. Then it begins.

Look at my achivements. i have been here and done that. i can tell you there was no raiding community that went out and help others. there were click communities of raiders who repersented small portion of player base. who often look down on other players. Most raiders in past were very toxic toward otehr none raiders.

Then there was the dungeon/farming/ quest community who actually started building things. These guys were the builders of wow. they actaully help people, form bounds and made wow a good place. i am sad to see them gone for most part.

Sorry lfr has really only done one thing. It allowed others to see stuff that there were not allowed to see. raiders just don't like the fact that now people can do the same thing they do.

Imagine if profession sports players push for remove all sports activity but in their own places. people go nuts. that what raiders are doing. LFR is consider a insult to them. it does not matter wow pretty much gutted it to its bone. they a'nt be happy till we go back to bc. Yeah you might say wraith. But boy they made big deal about how much pugging was going on. how easy raids were for people who pugged. Free loot yaddaa yadda look it up.
10/21/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Fedandalrian
Shouldn't raiding feel special.


Its another facit of the game. No differnet then anything else. Ion said already, that Raid or Die is going away. You should stop worrying about what other people have and how they are getting it.
10/21/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Kirkwood
Out of curiosity; you said the kids dad is a black guy. Are the parents married and living together?

Wow. the question itself doesnt seem that racist at all.
No, really.
I think I'll steer clear of that one, if you dont mind.
Posted by Fedandalrian
Shouldn't raiding feel special.

Shouldnt being a Pet Battle King feel special?
its all fighting AI crap anyway.
I only really have any respect for PvP players. THAT is REAL competition, even with this limited game and its outdated mechanics.
10/21/2018 11:26 AMPosted by Packlo
Blizzard slowly coming around to a complete badage system , they took it out because of content droughts and people not logging in , now they have bigger issue people not getting anything or the same item or worst item then they had before and just straight up quitting. The azeirte currency coming out it proof of that.

They'll be scaling it like they did Echoes of Battle in Legion, where obliterating glad gear produced lots of Echoes, and obliterating lowest level PvP gear gave next to none.

You who are complaining about LFR ruining your community are responsible for your own community. When you joined everyone was in this together. You all had a strong bond.

But as people left and new ones joined, you looked down on them. They weren't like you. And you shunned and ignored them.

And that's where we are now. There is nothing they can do to the game to force people to be friends with you if you aren't willing to make friends with them.

Seriously. These guys want to strip gear rewards from people who need gear the most and shower raiders with lots more free stuff. That's the definition of elitism.
10/21/2018 05:26 AMPosted by Jamesfisk
Hmmm. Generally, the only "toxic" people I see in LFR are the elitists talking trash in chat about all of the "scrubs". Yet there they are...in LFR.


Once you've gone into a Normal raid or above, you can never queue for LFR again for the rest of the expac.

Problem solved!
10/21/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Packlo
Someone explain me the major issues with LFR ?


It takes away the ability to preen for people obsessed with their epeens. That's it.

There's a ton of people forgetting LFR was once much harder than it is now. That if you didn't have a raid guild in MoP LFR was the way you got the items needed for the Legendary cloak.

If the OP truly wants a compromise, I think mine is perfect:

Once you've raided at Normal or above, you are locked out of LFR for the rest of the expac.

No more pressure to go back to LFR, because you can't!
10/21/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Infernastorm
10/21/2018 11:01 AMPosted by Dylana
’m prepared to make mythic not titanforge at all to be honest.


Sorry, no.

Since the vast majority of players are doing LFR and only LFR, it's only fair that the entirety of Raiders get to deal with any diminishing of Titanforging.

Otherwise, you're just asking for a nerf to LFR players.


What I said affects all players though. You said all raiders, lfr includes that.
10/21/2018 11:04 AMPosted by Arryk
*puts up billboard that reads LFR EXISTS TO JUSTIFY THE EXPENSE OF RAID DEVELOPMENT*

There, now I don't have to repeat it every damn time someone talks about anything that remotely resembles a GET RID OF LFR thread.

*puts up another sign that reads WARFORGING AND TITANFORGING WAS INTRODUCED TO MAKE FARMING MORE WORTHWHILE FOR RAID GUILDS*

Stop picking on LFR for a system that wasn't introduced for them.


Titanforging was also introduced to help lfr actually. It was to give inscentives to step into lfr if they were fully mythic or heroic geared players. Blizzard even said that, though they said it was to incentivize friends helping friends in lower level content. So that they had a chance to be rewarded for helping a friend.

But I’m not someone who argues to get rid of lfr just adjust the titanforge system.
10/21/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Emt
10/21/2018 10:13 AMPosted by Felicite
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This is the actual problem I see with LFR in terms of the other side - the developer side - of the equation.

This is the thought exercise.

You have WoW. Every aspect of it costs money. Every aspect of it takes time, has to be tested (I know, I know, but let's assume that testing is done). All of the art assets have to be in the game - and I recall Ghostcrawler saying that art assets were one of the slowest and most demanding elements. Getting the art to the 3D models.

You have a budget.

You have a player base.

You know what the numbers are.

Your CFO comes in and looks at your numbers - adoption numbers. They tell you that spending 1/3 of the WoW budget *on raids*, when only 2%-4% are using them at all, is not acceptable.

2-4% of your player base is entering raids.

For 1/3 of your budget.

The CFO is going to think this is crazy stupid. You can explain all the whys of the 4%, but - it's a stupid waste of money. Spend money on things *everyone* does. You want raids? Fine. Figure out how to do them on 2-4% of your total budget.

So: LFR is created. And now, all those raiding assets are accessible - and adopted - by a much larger portion of the player base, which saves the raid budget. You can now continue to develop raids. The same 2-4% will enter mythic as entered the original raids, period. But... the *assets* will be seen by 50%, which means it's now a good investment.

You love raiding and raid designing. It's where you spent most of your time in Vanilla. You don't actually care about LFR in any way but one: LFR adoption means your budget is safe and you can continue to do what you love. LFR is a necessity. You need to get people who are never going to raid, never spend the time forming guilds or farming or etc. etc., into the environment itself.

How do you square that away with the player base who hates it?

The compromises suggested - by anyone - and the Get Rid of LFR group - will actually threaten your ability to produce mythic raids for those who have the skillset to run them.

Do you: a) get rid of LFR, which adversely affects your ability to produce raids?

Do you: b) adjust LFR, removing all tier sets and making it harder? (They did this in WoD, and did not continue it going forward, so I'm assuming that that sunk the numbers of participants that you need to have to justify the raid budget.)

Do you: c) give up on raids and focus all your money on things that more players do?

I don't raid any more. I don't LFR. But I understand why it's not as simple as people think it is.


Bravo. But I think they can have their cake and eat it too. Make LFR a server thing only. Maybe...just maybe people will get accustomed to meeting the same people and a community can spring up from that. Right now LFR is nothing but a gimmick to get people into raids....can still do that but eliminate sharding, CRZ, etc...from the formula and see how that goes.
That defeats the entire point of the system. The servers are slowly dying, some deader than others. Thus why we stil have ALL of the cross server technology now.

One of the original purposes of the system is so that no one had to wait for hours to get into any kind of group.

This is not Wrath anymore: the dps wait times are already silly for this early into an expansion.
Your post is not constructive at all. Leave LFR alone!
10/20/2018 10:30 PMPosted by Freyia
I made this thread so we can have an actual discussion about this issue, So if you disagree please explain your thoughts on it and what we could do differently to help appease all members of the playerbase.


One side has an option that they enjoy, doesn't really harm anyone in reality, and is heavily participated in.

The other side wants to take it away for nebulous "reasons", while gating access to actual hard content with their "eliteness".

If you're taking something away to mollify a minority, what sort of "compromise" would that be? How could the side that loses the tiny bone Blizzard throws them be happy with that?

Blizzard may well cave in to the noisy minority that hates LFR, to their own detriment. They don't really seem to care much what happens anymore.
Same spurious argument for taking away "Titanforging", the perception of a few that someone is getting something better than them, sends them into an unreasoning rage.

Hold an actual referendum on both subjects. Since most people don't really care about this, except in GD, get a true representation by making the vote lucrative, a pet or mount for your vote, one to a customer. See what the actual majority thinks. Put an end to this constant whining drumbeat by a select tiny minority. After the vote, ban anyone who mentions it.

How's that for a "compromise"?
I think LFR is fine. I can hop into LFR and get mythic ilvl gear, and progress through normal and heroic at a comfortable pace.
In my opinion a compromise would remove LFR DIFFICULTY, but allow people to cue for normal difficulty.
10/21/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Emt
10/21/2018 10:13 AMPosted by Felicite
...

This is the actual problem I see with LFR in terms of the other side - the developer side - of the equation.

This is the thought exercise.

You have WoW. Every aspect of it costs money. Every aspect of it takes time, has to be tested (I know, I know, but let's assume that testing is done). All of the art assets have to be in the game - and I recall Ghostcrawler saying that art assets were one of the slowest and most demanding elements. Getting the art to the 3D models.

You have a budget.

You have a player base.

You know what the numbers are.

Your CFO comes in and looks at your numbers - adoption numbers. They tell you that spending 1/3 of the WoW budget *on raids*, when only 2%-4% are using them at all, is not acceptable.

2-4% of your player base is entering raids.

For 1/3 of your budget.

The CFO is going to think this is crazy stupid. You can explain all the whys of the 4%, but - it's a stupid waste of money. Spend money on things *everyone* does. You want raids? Fine. Figure out how to do them on 2-4% of your total budget.

So: LFR is created. And now, all those raiding assets are accessible - and adopted - by a much larger portion of the player base, which saves the raid budget. You can now continue to develop raids. The same 2-4% will enter mythic as entered the original raids, period. But... the *assets* will be seen by 50%, which means it's now a good investment.

You love raiding and raid designing. It's where you spent most of your time in Vanilla. You don't actually care about LFR in any way but one: LFR adoption means your budget is safe and you can continue to do what you love. LFR is a necessity. You need to get people who are never going to raid, never spend the time forming guilds or farming or etc. etc., into the environment itself.

How do you square that away with the player base who hates it?

The compromises suggested - by anyone - and the Get Rid of LFR group - will actually threaten your ability to produce mythic raids for those who have the skillset to run them.

Do you: a) get rid of LFR, which adversely affects your ability to produce raids?

Do you: b) adjust LFR, removing all tier sets and making it harder? (They did this in WoD, and did not continue it going forward, so I'm assuming that that sunk the numbers of participants that you need to have to justify the raid budget.)

Do you: c) give up on raids and focus all your money on things that more players do?

I don't raid any more. I don't LFR. But I understand why it's not as simple as people think it is.


Bravo. But I think they can have their cake and eat it too. Make LFR a server thing only. Maybe...just maybe people will get accustomed to meeting the same people and a community can spring up from that. Right now LFR is nothing but a gimmick to get people into raids....can still do that but eliminate sharding, CRZ, etc...from the formula and see how that goes.
That defeats the entire point of the system. The servers are slowly dying, some deader than others. Thus why we stil have ALL of the cross server technology now.

One of the original purposes of the system is so that no one had to wait for hours to get into any kind of group.

This is not Wrath anymore: the dps wait times are already silly for this early into an expansion. Which means there are a lot less people on the servers.

If we still had 10 million players, you might (MIGHT) have a good argument.
10/21/2018 02:25 PMPosted by Unsub
Blizzard may well cave in to the noisy minority that hates LFR, to their own detriment. They don't really seem to care much what happens anymore.
Same spurious argument for taking away "Titanforging", the perception of a few that someone is getting something better than them, sends them into an unreasoning rage.


Unreasoning rage eh? You're too emotional about getting high ilevel gear when you don't earn it. It's unhealthy long term for the game. You're ostracizing people who raid hard content. Gear is a reward, rewards should always be determined by the amount of effort you put into it. Prestige in gear creates standards, standards promote healthier communities. The examples of healthier communities that you benefit from are. wowhead, mmo-champion, creators of websites like icy-veins, noxxic, bloodmallet, warcraftlogs, askmrrobot. Large social media facets like twitch streamers, method. What do all of these things do? They supplement the game with free publicity and assistance.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for a compromise between the two, your all or nothing approach gets nowhere and will alienate communities. Sure the majority of players help fuel the game want LFR, but don't think for a second that the high end raiding community does any less.

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