Why do people keep saying Vanilla was better?

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11/06/2018 06:44 PMPosted by Lorsaire
11/06/2018 03:12 PMPosted by Merrymaker
What was better explain?
I played back then. A lot.

I pushed through Naxx40 with a team before BC was out, all but Saph & KT before the xpack. I was playing pretty much all the time. Had a max level character of every class at 60. Was running a gold making business with my alts with all of the tailors and alchemists doing mooncloth and arcanite transmutes every few days.

I loved the game. It was great.

But I know that I won't be going back and playing classic in any serious sense. Maybe make a character I play like an alt just for the sake of nostalgia. But that's all it will be.

Going back would be like re-reading a book you know was great at the time when you were a teen and that you loved, 20 years later as an adult when you know now that there was a lot of stuff you've since learned that will probably ruin it for you if you try it again.

And my suspicions on that were confirmed when I downloaded the classic demo.

Don't get me wrong, I will make a classic character when it comes out and may even play them up to 60 again. But I won't raid. I won't be able to replicate what I did 14 years ago. And I don't really want to. I have those fond memories and I kind of done want to ruin them with trying to go back and unsuccessfully try to capture how it was and fail. Because it won't work. And I already know that.

I may enjoy it if say the old Tarren Mill vs South Shore world PvP starts up again and that alone might be worthwhile to check out from time to time. But I'm not going to expect miracles.

This is me. I raided in vanilla too - and it was fun, but mostly because of my guild. We had a blast on vent, cracking jokes and busting on each other - and getting bosses on farm was fun.

I simply don't have the time nor interest in doing it again. The only reason I'd go into a Classic realm is to experience the Horde side, because I only saw the Horde side during cata, for a time, when I transferred a character over. But even then...maybe...and most likely not, because I'd want to keep going and experience all of the expansions from the Horde side, especially BfA.

But keep in mind, not everyone is like us, and didn't play when we did. Some of the Classic players might not even have been alive when we played. I get why some are interested, because of when us older players wax romantically about the old days.

Nobody knows how this will play out, and it's fine. I'm a bit skeptical about a big number of new players, I think most of the interest is from people who started playing since Cata, who never saw the old world - and no judgement from me, I have mixed feelings still over that change in Cata.

But I also think there's a lot of built up expectations that are going to fall flat on their faces. There's a certain number of try hards in the Classic crowd who have this expectation that they'll rush through and clear Naxx, and stand on the bridge in Ironforge in front of the AH, and be treated like a rockstar...which didn't happen in vanilla. Yeah, you'd get guys who wanted that, who'd park their MC/AQ/Naxx equipped toons there, but most people ran right by them, lol.

That crowd? I think they're in for a rude awakening.

But i think there's enough people who just want to try it, to make it worth it, and I hope they enjoy it - we did!
probably has to do with vanilla giving us the illusion of choice, whereas BFA forces things down our throats we cant use.

case in point, almost every piece of azerite armor I pickup seems to have versa on it.
Posted by Tadkins
11/06/2018 06:40 PMPosted by Utterly
Not really. You had to be a pretty polite person to get anywhere at a high level in vanilla or into a good guild. You didn't get what I mean. They can't work out strategy for themselves. 20 year olds should be able to do that without having every detail explained to them.

Not really true there either. Plenty of the biggest trolls on my server at the time were in fact in the top guilds. And they could do what they want to others on the server, because really who could stop them? No top guild would ever kick their best healer because he ninja'ed something from a group of "rando peasant scum". Hell they probably laughed at you together over Vent if you tried to report them to their GM.

I remember the top guild been wrecking ball in pvp and gloating around the place. When Arena came around in BC Everyone thought this guild would be the best and was funny to find out they ended up with an average arena rankings.
Well my friends and I enjoyed the freedom character builds had in Classic WoW. My hunter from Classic to BFA lost about 95% of what made me enjoy playing a hunter. I'm not worried about crafting/buying ammo, feeding my pet(s), or pet food buff(s), though it was nice to grind for those materials and in doing so made open world full of PVP/PVE adventures than today's WoW. But what was/is missing from Classic to now is player freedom. Devs could have went into depth with Classic's talent tree like how other games that have a variety of paths to choose from for their players to enjoy like Path of Exile. Instead, players are stuck choosing 1 out of 3 abilities from each row, 7, and most of those abilities are complete trash. They are either lacking synergy, boring towards gameplay, 1 Ability is BiS over others leaving others useless, add no actual meaning, No cool effects, or a waste of potential for other abilities to shine that have been taken away by the Devs when the community actually "enjoyed" them from previous expansions.

Devs philosophy is to make each expansion "new" , but when they add "these" new abilities to each expansion, they fail to understand the ripple effect it causes. Look at every expansion WoW had when new abilities were put in and old ones taken out. Look at BFA now as a prime example. About half of WoW classes/Specs are unplayable and when classes/specs are out performing, their logic/philosophy ONCE AGAIN is to "Nerf" these classes/specs down to those that are under performing, while ignoring the reason to WHY those classes/specs are under performing and by doing this leads to those classes who were/are nerfed seeking attention later with buffs, while those under performing classes who are now topping meters have a boring rotation, crappy talent abilities or other issues that were ignored. Classes/Specs, such as Blood Death Knights, look OP because who ever designed their talents or stats for BFA did a good job while others such as Prot Warriors or Guardian Druids didn't.

Also, look at how many abilities classes lost from Classic to BFA. MM can't melee anymore or wield a two handed or Dual Wield, while having a Bow and quiver equipped. Now, we have a Bow... without a quiver???? So MM lost all their Melee abilities that went to survival and other abilities that where split into what we have now Specs, though they had that in Classic, but we were able to "choose" which path we wanted to go down. Then they took away cool abilities like the mana leech arrows and our mana pool that turned into focus which made hunter abilities some what clunky, to me. I don't even know WHY they gave Beast Mastery Chimaera Shot that was such an AMAZING ability for MM. There are many other cool abilities taken out as well. The Survival abilities could have been added into MM gameplay, at least, like how rogues have an option to play bleed or poison build. Look how rogues use to have poison dripping from their daggers... where is that??? Remember when Enhancement shamans or other specs could click on their element and it stays on their weapons until it expires... now its in a clunky boring ish rotation... what about totems??? The freedom to choose to have it or not. Water shield and other shaman RP abilities that MADE shamans ... Shamans....

These and there are other reasons why me, my friends, and I'm pretty sure why others say Classic WoW was better. Trust me, they could have gone a different route and all these new and old abilities could have been up to the player to choose rather then being limited to a row of trash. WoW now is more about "player limitations rather then player Freedom" or I should write "boring rather then fun".
11/06/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Tadkins
11/06/2018 06:53 PMPosted by Merrymaker
Lol, ya back then there was a server reputation true.. but not to that level. trust me.

Only the peasants were beholden to a "server reputation".
Which was 99% of people. There were obnoxious people but they could be removed quite easily. Because every group had to be formed on that realm's /2 in most cases, a group lead could be warned so and so is a ninja looter or terrible. By no means were they romantic or pure times though. The community was never pristine and never will be.

Now you can click a button and act however you want and say whatever you want with no repercussions, talking about dungeon groups. BGs were always a disaster.
11/06/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Yayayayayaya
Now you can click a button and act however you want and say whatever you want with no repercussions, talking about dungeon groups. BGs were always a disaster.

Which is cool because you can kick someone like that and find a replacement quickly. I wouldn't say there are no repercussions for acting like a butt today.

Today we have far more choice in who we want to play with, and be able to count on doing all the content in the game. I can be excited for new patches and new raid trailers because I have my guild and group of friends, beholden to no one else, and can count on seeing those places.

If the top guild on your server raiding Naxx and Sunwell were full of terrible people, you were forced to either put up with them (and abandon your friends in the process) or you just never got to go in.
11/06/2018 03:36 PMPosted by Lacoste

it just goes on and on. The people who are terrible at wow will like BfA more than classic. There is no hand holding, free loot or LFR. You don't log in on Tuesday and go kill your loot pinatas, do your world quests and then do LFR and log out to spend the rest of the week crying about raider.io like the OP.

While I do look forward to classic servers again, I don't really see how not wanting to do the old raid grinds makes you terrible at the game. 40 man cat herding was a giant pain in the !@#.
11/06/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Doomomega
case in point, almost every piece of azerite armor I pickup seems to have versa on it.

That is very strange. Especially considering azerite armor doesn't have secondary stats on it at all.
Gameplay was slower, more methodical, move at your own pace. It was grindier, yeah, and stuff like farming herbs and doing Dungeons took longer, etc., but this kinda made it more relaxing. There wasn't a timer placed on every aspect of the game, telling you to log in now, you have to do this now, faster ( World Bosses being one exception). "WoW and Chill", log in and farm dreamfoil for a few hours, chatting with guildmates.

The linear difficulty meant that, for most people, there was always something to look forward to, strive for, always another step in progression that was easy to identify. Sure, this may have meant you may be "locked out" of some content, but I think that the 40 man raid size was the real problem. Modern solutions like multiple difficulties and Titanforging are messy in my opinion. It's not about reaching a point where you're satisfied because you hit your limit, but you're simply just bored.
Because they keep looking at the game through rose tinted glasses.

Classic/vanilla was horrible compared to BFA.
11/06/2018 05:59 PMPosted by Forums
Or rather, the game actively interferes with it [community building]now.
No, it doesn't. There are some systems in place that allow for re-use of the same area to advance a storyline (phasing). There is another system that helps alleviate server strain and provide stability (sharding).

None of these by design interfere with community. Blizzard just needs to figure out how to allow phasing back when grouped up (i.e. everyone phases in to where the group leader is). Sharding already works that way with a few hiccups here and there.

Sounds like you mean yes, not no, since you agree that Blizzard has not figured out how to allow appropriate phasing so people and characters with different degrees of advancement can do things together. Sure, it should be possible, but currently, it isn't.
Vanilla was a completely different game and some people just prefer that style of game play.
11/06/2018 03:12 PMPosted by Merrymaker
No sharding/Cross realm or whatever.

This is a big one for me, i will not touch live again until this crap is semi removed from the game. Cross realm grouping is ok but being being forced into zones with crz sharding active isn't. I don't see anyone from my med-high pop server anymore, I only see random people who don't care and nor do i care about them.

It's killed server communities, no one talks anymore, no friendships are made and no one has accountability for their actions. All this does is solve a population issue by a illusion of population, everyone else you see in outdoor content might as well be npcs for that matter and treated as such.

I could go on a lot more on this but Blizzard doesn't care, they only care about MAUs and it will be one less soon when my sub runs out in Feb.

I'm done with WoW for good.
I was there in Vanilla... worked my way from level 1 to level 60. Enjoyed 5-man dungeons while leveling... Black Fathom Deeps, Stockade, Scarlet Monastery, Razorfen Kraul, Razorfen Downs, Maraudon, Uldaman, Zul'Farak, and Sunken Temple.

It was my first time in MMORPG and it was first time to see those awesome leveling dungeons... and they were challenging to beat.

At level 60, endless farming of Black Rock Depths, Lower and Upper Black Rock Spire, Stratholme, Scholomance, Dire Maul East, West and North. Those dungeons were hard. You don't just let the tank run to the trash mobs and everybody nukes them out. It's not like that. It's all about the Tank's pull. Wrong pull and you would aggro the patrol mobs and the next mobs next to it might be pulled too leading to wipes. The tank has to know what he is pulling. If the mob being pulled can cast fear, I have to pull it far from other mobs. If the mob being pulled is a caster, it wont run to you; instead it would attack from where it is. I taught those other tanks to hit the caster and hide into the wall. Nobody taught me those. I created my own strat. I know this coz I was that Warrior Tank. Warriors were the only Tanks during that time.

We had Stratholme 45 min run... the Mythic + of that time. The warrior tank has to have decent DPS too to beat this timed run. I was tanking on a 2H sword and switching to shield when overwhelmed. I was a DPS/Tank Warrior, a DPS warrior that can tank... Berserker Stance (different from Battle Stance) when DPS'in... switching to Defensive Stance when tanking. I can stance dance back then especially in PvP.

After farming for Fire Resistance gear on level 60 dungeons, we started going to Molten Core. Then Black Wing Lair... whew... those dungeons are on Fire. Even Onyxia raid requires Fire Resistance Gear. Onyxia raid was uber fun... Odd groups Left, Even Groups Right, DoTs more DoTs.

Then they opened Zul'Gurub... wow the first raid that doesn't have Fire. LOL. Hakkar fight was unique. Zinrokh, Destroyer of Worlds was a great Sword and those Hunters who were not melee rolls for them too. LOL. Everything then was a Hunter gear... Hunter rolls for everything. They cried when my Warrior rolled for their Bow. LOL.

Then there was this event in Ahn'Qiraj. Wow, when it opened, the whole population merged on the same area all at the same time. I was there. The lag wiped us all. The overwhelming loggin in of people killed the servers. LOL.
AQ-40 was a different Raid Beast. It requires skilled DPS'ers... not just geared but with amazing DPS. I was invited to raid with a different guild who has BWL on farming status. I was surprised how poor their DPS was. They struggled on first 2 bosses. Unlike on my hardcore raiding guild, the first 2 bosses was so so easy. Our DPS were far better. No wonder, we beat AQ40 and reached Naxx-40. Most people in Vanilla... maybe 80% didn't see Naxx-40. I was fortunate and proud that I was there in Naxx-40 with my overgeared Warrior. LOL. I don't remember we used DBM back then. Just imagine how hardcore our 40-man group... killing highend Vanilla Bosses without DBM. LOL.

What I can say back then is that the dungeons 5-man and 40-man were VERY CHALLENGING. Nobody has the same gear like our hardcore raiding group. There's no LFR, Normal and Heroic Difficulty where you could get inferior copies of our gear. It's like all of them were on default Mythic level.

Challenge = Fun for me. Of course Vanilla was good for hardcore players. It's not for casuals. If you have limited playing time, you would never see Naxx-40... even AQ-40.
11/06/2018 03:43 PMPosted by Merrymaker
11/06/2018 03:41 PMPosted by Marystuart
t was a special time. It truly felt magical and I immersed myself in that world like I never have before or since.

But you will never experience that again tho? It was because something new in 2004..

So it is Nostalgia?

it will never be the same again because he's 14 years older.

The one thing people never grasp about Nostalgia , Its not the event, its the person experiencing it that matters.
11/06/2018 08:09 PMPosted by Älistar
It's killed server communities, no one talks anymore, no friendships are made and no one has accountability for their actions. All this does is solve a population issue by a illusion of population, everyone else you see in outdoor content might as well be npcs for that matter and treated as such.

I made a new friend yesterday just doing a circuit of Arathi Highlands rares.


Can still talk to people and connect just fine imo.
Another thing is that most things in vanilla were more rewarding. Leveling, PVP, Dungeons, Raids. It all felt more earned. Even buying your first mount at 40 was a pretty big deal.
LMAO people keep repeating the same BS about the talent tree's. There was no real choice about the talents, there was a right way and a wrong way to pick your talents, you either did it correctly, or you were gimping yourself.
11/06/2018 03:12 PMPosted by Merrymaker
And since when you can be around 380+ without actually putting some effort? and doing high keys + raiding mythic?

The thing is 380+ is meaningless. It isn't required for any content except for maybe the highest peaks of Mythic+ and Mythic Raids.

In Vanilla and quite a few of the other expansions, it took a lot of effort just to step foot in the first raid.

Ilvl is fluffed out more than it was back then. Nowadays it's more incremental to make yourself feel a little better. Back then it was about gearing just to do content.

Just figured i'd say that. 90% of the gear upgrades you get in this game have no actual purpose except making you feel special.

Edit: I mean just to make a point, Molten Core:

-You needed Fire Resist gear (mostly for tanks)
-You needed likely a Dungeon 1 or Dungeon .5 set. You were lucky if you got full Dungeon 1
-You needed to go attune to MC just so you didn't have to run BRD to get in
-You needed a certain amount of rep with the Hydraxan Warlords on several players to reach the last 2 bosses
-Most of the dungeon gear kindof sucked, so chances were you were going to farm Molten Core just to progress through Molten Core.

What i'm basically trying to say is there's a difference between Gear that makes or breaks your ability to progress, and gear that decides whether or not you're doing ver 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, or 8 of the same thing.
You should go to that forum and ask them. We are not mind readers.

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