New PTR is out, guess what didn't get nerfed

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Rogues and DH.

Yey!
marksmanship hunters still no 2 target cleave and yet not enough single target to make up for it yay
Safe to say 8.1 kept the status quo instead of addressing ANY balancing or gameplay feedback.

Hope you enjoy more BDK/Rogue/DH/Mage/ Disc or Monk MDI's until 9.0
Shouldn't you be more focused on improving those specs that may be behind and play like !@#$ instead of calling for nerfs on those that are actually enjoyable to play?

A level playing field would be wonderful! But when you have specs that play like %^-*, the solution is not in dragging others down to your miserable level of enjoyment...
And they nerfed Demonology. They seriously nerfed Demonology...wtf...

Sacrificed Souls Shadow Bolt and Demonbolt deal 5% 4% additional damage per demon you have summoned. Demonology Warlock - Level 100 Talent. Demonology Warlock - Level 100 Talent. 100 yd range.

It's trivial but still a nerf.
11/13/2018 07:23 PMPosted by Rockford
Shouldn't you be more focused on improving those specs that may be behind and play like !@#$ instead of calling for nerfs on those that are actually enjoyable to play?

A level playing field would be wonderful! But when you have specs that play like %^-*, the solution is not in dragging others down to your miserable level of enjoyment...


From a design perspective, what makes more sense to you?

Buffing the numerous specs that are nowhere near rogue and demon hunter levels of strength, or bringing down rogues and demon hunters to a more reasonable, acceptable standards?

There's nothing to justify how egregious the balance is. It's difficult enough getting Blizzard to fix that classes that need to be fixed, and now your solution to fixing the disparity between rogues/demon hunters and everyone else is the one that would would take more time, more attention, and more resources?
Nice to hear!
11/13/2018 07:23 PMPosted by Rockford
Shouldn't you be more focused on improving those specs that may be behind and play like !@#$ instead of calling for nerfs on those that are actually enjoyable to play?

A level playing field would be wonderful! But when you have specs that play like %^-*, the solution is not in dragging others down to your miserable level of enjoyment...

The issue as I see it is not necessarily that they are completely OP. Its as was mentioned these 2 DPS along with Arms Warrior bring such powerful Burst damage that the sustain DPS builds could not be buffed to be as effective in any situation.

Originally these 3 classes were slated for pretty harsh Nerfs to their AOE burst damage, which were admittedly a little over the top. They then reverted the Nerfs before they went live, and said they need more data to balance them properly.

The issue with that response is other classes that perform nowhere near on par with those 3 have already been nerfed with far less data and testing or play time.... All in All, it just leads people to be more irritated at this as the Blizzard Dev team has managed the whole situation poorly.

That combined with their severe lack of any interaction with the community leads to people being angry with the Devs, and with the classes, and with the balance, and then the game.
At this point one of the devs must have an SO who plays dh and rogue. No other reason they haven’t taken a dps hit or something to give them a weakness to bring them in line.

It is funny watching all the fotm dh rerolls running around though.
Blues got nerfs all over the board. Cool.
11/13/2018 07:42 PMPosted by Whiskeyjack
From a design perspective, what makes more sense to you?
Improving the specs that are having issues up to the level of Rogue and DH. Like really, do you think quality of gameplay behind Shadow, Shaman, Feral and other outliers are at an acceptable level? Yes, it's more work to bring specs up to an enjoyable level, but this is a !@#$ing game, where playstyles matter, and people need to have fun.

Or just nerf the %^-* out of specs that are enjoyable, so all 36 specs feel like !@#$.

GG, you're qualified to be a designer in Blizz's team...
11/13/2018 08:15 PMPosted by Aethevale
The issue as I see it is not necessarily that they are completely OP.
Very much agree. They are strong in ST, AoE, Utility and have useful movement options. Design got them right, which is rare for this expansion. They need to do better for improving other specs to the level of quality behind the Rogue specs! Use them as an example of what to strive for!

As for the AoE nerfs that were reverted, WW, Frost, Havoc and Arms were involved. While Rogue is certainly strong in it's AoE, I do not think it's burst warranted being included with the above adjustments.
11/13/2018 08:15 PMPosted by Aethevale
severe lack of any interaction with the community leads to people being angry with the Devs, and with the classes, and with the balance, and then the game.
Which has been a massive issue with the feedback over the last couple of expansions. There are blue posts on upcoming changes to the next build of PTR, but no solid back and forth discussion or communication between players and designer that could significantly improve the specs.

In general, they need to focus on the specs that need to be improved, and brought up to the level of Rogue and DH. They don't purposefully kneecap an enjoyable spec to the absurd depths of %^-*'ness of the underperformers.
11/13/2018 04:45 PMPosted by Ashenan
Rogues and DH.

Yey!


Yeah, they nerfed Frosts aoe damage and snares, but left rogues and DH.
I also remember that several melee classes like dks and monks got their nerfs reverted on PTR, except for frost mages.

World of Meleecraft I guess.
How is this buff instead of nerf argument not a meme by now?

If you do this, not only is it more work, but you introduce constant power creep which trivializes content, homogenizes classes and simplifies game play.

Imagine if all classes had the aoe burst of of demon hunter? The game would essentially become as boring an unsatisfying as heroic dungeons were in wrath.

Demon hunters and rogues have obvious strengths, yet no significant weaknesses. Weaknesses that they should have.
Rogues actually did get nerfed, but it was a pvp nerf so no bearing on m+ and raiding.

They removed deadly brew pvp talent for sin spec, so now they can’t have wound and deadly poison at the same time.
11/13/2018 10:38 PMPosted by Tchocky
How is this buff instead of nerf argument not a meme by now?

If you do this, not only is it more work, but you introduce constant power creep which trivializes content, homogenizes classes and simplifies game play.

Imagine if all classes had the aoe burst of of demon hunter? The game would essentially become as boring an unsatisfying as heroic dungeons were in wrath.

Demon hunters and rogues have obvious strengths, yet no significant weaknesses. Weaknesses that they should have.


This post reminded me of d3 and why the “buff! Never nerf!” Philosophy is a bad idea. Because it becomes a power creep arms race where every patch classes and in d3, sets, have to get buffs to keep with the creep, and suddenly players are soloing rift keys they used to struggle with a group for.
It’s dumb, d3 power creep is out of control, and giving rogues and demon hunters actual weaknesses is a better move.
11/14/2018 12:48 AMPosted by Baruup
11/13/2018 10:38 PMPosted by Tchocky
How is this buff instead of nerf argument not a meme by now?

If you do this, not only is it more work, but you introduce constant power creep which trivializes content, homogenizes classes and simplifies game play.

Imagine if all classes had the aoe burst of of demon hunter? The game would essentially become as boring an unsatisfying as heroic dungeons were in wrath.

Demon hunters and rogues have obvious strengths, yet no significant weaknesses. Weaknesses that they should have.


This post reminded me of d3 and why the “buff! Never nerf!” Philosophy is a bad idea. Because it becomes a power creep arms race where every patch classes and in d3, sets, have to get buffs to keep with the creep, and suddenly players are soloing rift keys they used to struggle with a group for.
It’s dumb, d3 power creep is out of control, and giving rogues and demon hunters actual weaknesses is a better move.


Currently though, with some specs in the state they're in, it's not as much a case of buff never nerf, it's a case of aoe damage in the 2-8 target range shouldn't be a 'niche' for only some specs, and everyone should have some forms of utility from the list of utilities that people ACTUALLY WANT for Mythic+.

Though I'm not in favour of leaving a single one of the 'forgotten specs' where they currently are, in terms of design, game play, performance, or utility, I do agree this has to go both ways.

Some specs have too much, and some specs have far far too little, alongside dealing with their own unique problems that complicate the matter even further. Ultimately this whole mess needs to be fixed (Including spec design for those with crippling design problems) next expansion, and steps towards that have to start happening now.
11/13/2018 07:23 PMPosted by Rockford
Shouldn't you be more focused on improving those specs that may be behind and play like !@#$ instead of calling for nerfs on those that are actually enjoyable to play?

A level playing field would be wonderful! But when you have specs that play like %^-*, the solution is not in dragging others down to your miserable level of enjoyment...

Numercal changes have nothing to do with how a spec plays or feels. No one is asking for rogues and DHs to be less fun, they just need to be brought in line with the damage that most other specs are putting out.
11/13/2018 04:45 PMPosted by Ashenan
Rogues and DH.

Yey!


people like you will just move to the next specs that end up on top to cry about.

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