Raider.IO reactions show you what kind of parents people had.

General Discussion
11/14/2018 12:26 AMPosted by Barelor
Raider.io isn't inherently a bad thing, but it's often used far more strictly than it should be. I remember a thread someone made in which they legitimately complained that too many people were offended that their raider.io was being checked for an elite WQ group (not even a world boss, just a regular elite mob).

It's one thing to use it in M+ to find people you can feel assured will perform well. But it's another if you start pulling a Gearscore and we start seeing +2 groups that demand heroic Uldir or better to get in.


I find it inconceivable how one thinks its legitimate to complain that another wants to form a group of players/characters that meet criteria x and y. Where x and y are whatever the individual forming the group wants it to be.

If I want to form a group and will only accept world first raiders for the most recent tier, and you don't qualify, move on. There is zero point emoting about how ridiculous it is. Did I mention that the group was to run normal Sunken Temple? What if I fail to form said group, what if I do? It doesn't matter. Move on. I certainly would, having failed or succeeded.
I'm just not comfortable with the idea of a third party app (with very questionable metrics) determining whether or not I can do content.

I don't bother with mythic e-peen garbage anyway so it doesn't really affect me, it's just the idea I have a problem with.

I see. You are just like him.

Hey, you and the OP both had moms who rewarded you for bullying kids who were smaller than you, didn't you? And you do the same thing with your own kids.

And you know, I'm probably right.

The truth stings, doesn't it?

The "waah, those other kids get a trophy and my johnny didn't, but at least he can beat that kid up". Right.

Actually, your whole claim is made-up. It's a lie based on a bizarre sense of entitlement you and your ilk revel in. You in fact know nothing whatever about child-rearing or psychology. But the fun part is that you think this makes you more of an expert than anyone who has ever studied it.

Fun fact.


This is the most random thing I've read in a while. Good try?
I've dealt with enough metrics in my life to know what eventually happens.

Enjoy the metric while it feels accurate...

.. because in time, all metrics will be gamed until the metric becomes more important than what you were trying to achieve with it.
11/14/2018 01:26 AMPosted by Varb
...
Lies implies that the OP is wrong when there is a very good chance he is correct. There is a huge difference in the parents who think that every child gets a trophy vs parents that instill responsibility into their children. Thinking that doesn't rub off on your children is ridiculous. The OP's claims won't be 100% accurate but it's plain as day when you read a thread and people complain about raider.io, other group leaders, etc vs those who take responsibility to make their own way.

Let me guess, you're a mother who feels like it is her duty to defend these hypothetical bad parents because you think parenting is so hard?

I see. You are just like him.

Hey, you and the OP both had moms who rewarded you for bullying kids who were smaller than you, didn't you? And you do the same thing with your own kids.

And you know, I'm probably right.

The truth stings, doesn't it?

The "waah, those other kids get a trophy and my johnny didn't, but at least he can beat that kid up". Right.

Actually, your whole claim is made-up. It's a lie based on a bizarre sense of entitlement you and your ilk revel in. You in fact know nothing whatever about child-rearing or psychology. But the fun part is that you think this makes you more of an expert than anyone who has ever studied it.

Fun fact.


Actually I was usually the kid being excluded. You know what my mum told me? "Those kids are arseholes, find better people to be friends with." Solid advice.
11/14/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Snowfox
I've dealt with enough metrics in my life to know what eventually happens.

Enjoy the metric while it feels accurate...

.. because in time, all metrics will be gamed until the metric becomes more important than what you were trying to achieve with it.


Sure, but it's important to acknowledge that some metrics are outright better than others, and r.io is just outright better than gearscore. "Gaming" io is just running dungeons at levels you haven't run before, and sure, if you've got tens in half the dungeons then maybe earning sevens in the other half isn't really proving much, but at least you're getting out there and doing content. Gaming ilvl leads to degenerate behavior like taking offspec gear that will live in your bank so that you can boost your bag ilvl.

It's a false dichotomy to suppose that the alternative to Raider.io is that people will just invite you to their groups every time; either they're going to use another (worse) metric, or pugging higher content will become impossible.
11/14/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Aled
11/14/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Snowfox
I've dealt with enough metrics in my life to know what eventually happens.

Enjoy the metric while it feels accurate...

.. because in time, all metrics will be gamed until the metric becomes more important than what you were trying to achieve with it.


Sure, but it's important to acknowledge that some metrics are outright better than others, and r.io is just outright better than gearscore. "Gaming" io is just running dungeons at levels you haven't run before, and sure, if you've got tens in half the dungeons then maybe earning sevens in the other half isn't really proving much, but at least you're getting out there and doing content. Gaming ilvl leads to degenerate behavior like taking offspec gear that will live in your bank so that you can boost your bag ilvl.

It's a false dichotomy to suppose that the alternative to Raider.io is that people will just invite you to their groups every time; either they're going to use another (worse) metric, or pugging higher content will become impossible.

Gearscore wasn't great either. We are agreed.

I find it interesting to try and picture what the next evolution of such a tool would look like.. or require. raider.io is only possible because of the Blizzard API's exposing data about us.

.. but.. if they exposed a little more... what next step would we accept?
heh i think op summed it up rather nicely tbh.
let's see
I don't care about this raider IO thing because I don't really raid
and I didn't have friends because I didn't care about making friends

yeah I guess that makes sense
11/13/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Sacrosànct
When you were a kid, at some point you probably encountered a group of kids that didn't want to play with you. If you went crying to your parents there were one of two reactions: either your parents told you to go find someone else to play with, or they went and told those kids off and made them include you.

For the record, it's the former category that got it right. No-one is obligated to spend time with you, and trying to force them too just makes them loathe you more.
or, and hear me out now, excluding people based on a third parties inaccurate number for them is a stupid idea.

that's like not letting jimmy play with you because mike says he picks his nose.
why take the word of a third party source instead of finding out for yourself?

inb4 "your opinion is invalid because you don't do many M+'s"
I think the solution is a simple one. Do away with the Group Finder and make people find groups like they did in the good ole days. Problem solved.
When you were a kid, at some point you probably encountered a group of kids that didn't want to play with you.


No, actually, by the time I was 12 I was a junior trainee cadet for a volunteer ambulance unit.

i never had that problem.

Oh and btw

The Blizzard Mythic+ Leaderboard/API only includes runs that are ranked in the Top 500 weekly runs for each dungeon and realm. Your run must rank within the Top 500 of any member's realm for our system to track it.


So in fact it records less than maybe 1/10th of all runs.

Find another oracle, Caesar.
11/14/2018 02:19 PMPosted by Greenegg
11/13/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Sacrosànct
When you were a kid, at some point you probably encountered a group of kids that didn't want to play with you. If you went crying to your parents there were one of two reactions: either your parents told you to go find someone else to play with, or they went and told those kids off and made them include you.

For the record, it's the former category that got it right. No-one is obligated to spend time with you, and trying to force them too just makes them loathe you more.
or, and hear me out now, excluding people based on a third parties inaccurate number for them is a stupid idea.

that's like not letting jimmy play with you because mike says he picks his nose.
why take the word of a third party source instead of finding out for yourself?

inb4 "your opinion is invalid because you don't do many M+'s"
the "third party" is using blizzards own data.

the only flaw with it is that blizzard doesnt provide all the data , only provides the top 500 of a given realm per week.

good news though! they are going to allow even more data to make it even more reliable AND they are going to put it in the default interface your top run!

but ya thats gonna be great :D.

EDIT: forgot to add that its happening in 8.1
What level of mental gymnastics is this?
11/14/2018 02:23 PMPosted by Aehl
So in fact it records less than maybe 1/10th of all runs.

Find another oracle, Caesar.


What's going to be your excuse when 8.1 hits and your personal armory automatically contains everything instead of having to comb leaderboards for it? You're railing against an imperfection in the system that's already slated to be ironed out.
11/14/2018 02:23 PMPosted by Aehl
So in fact it records less than maybe 1/10th of all runs.

Find another oracle, Caesar.


That's a serious problem (apparently fixed in 8.1) that applies to a much much smaller group of people than you imagine. Here's the threshold:

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/realms/us/previous

This would be for getting a run done the instant before reset last week (a relatively good week compared to this week, which will likely have much lower thresholds). As you can see, you're completely unaffected by it on Aman'thul. In fact, if anything, it's to your advantage, because people on, say, Area 52 who want to record runs have an extra reason to invite you and get on the Aman'thul leaderboard.

The people who get screwed by this are those who run with a guild or a server-bound group of friends on high-pop servers on sunday and monday nights. This can really really suck for those people, but to say that it invalidates r.io entirely - especially coming from someone totally unaffected, or if anything benefiting from this mess - is silly.
11/13/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Sacrosànct
When you were a kid, at some point you probably encountered a group of kids that didn't want to play with you. If you went crying to your parents there were one of two reactions: either your parents told you to go find someone else to play with, or they went and told those kids off and made them include you.

For the record, it's the former category that got it right. No-one is obligated to spend time with you, and trying to force them too just makes them loathe you more.
I usually didn't care to play with other kids, I was happiest alone in my room with my SNES / Genesis / N64 / Playstation / Game Boy (depending on my age). Wasn't until High School that I got a little social, but school sports and a girlfriend were enough for me, I rarely ever hung out with any of the people I considered friends.

I also hate Raider.IO
What's going to be your excuse when 8.1 hits and your personal armory automatically contains everything instead of having to comb leaderboards for it? You're railing against an imperfection in the system that's already slated to be ironed out.


Very little, since I will be tanking for a group I was invited to a few weeks ago.

Glad its being ironed out, surprised it took them this long to figure out what Mother Macree and the drover's dog could have told them months ago.

The people who get screwed by this are those who run with a guild or a server-bound group of friends on high-pop servers on sunday and monday nights. This can really really suck for those people, but to say that it invalidates r.io entirely - especially coming from someone totally unaffected, or if anything benefiting from this mess - is silly.


Hence my point that it is flawed, hence my point about not going to Delphi and accepting what they say as ex cathedra.

Mind you, the piece on the seven hairy ones was correct, so they do get it right sometimes.
If you read any of my other posts in this thread, my ringing endorsement of raider.io boils down to "at least it's better than gearscore." Ex cathedra not so much. If the complaints were that it's insufficient as a metric and some simply-implemented superior solution is out there waiting, that'd be one thing. The complaints are mostly that people didn't get into the groups they wanted, which is kind of... working as intended.

There is no path forward where everyone gets into every group they want to. We are left with a variety of lesser evils. So far Raider.io is the least evil. If you've got a better solution, I'm all ears.

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