Character progression now vs. 8.1

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I watched these clips today:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ArborealBillowingDogKappaPride
https://clips.twitch.tv/SleepyPreciousGalagoCmonBruh

And basically he criticizes the idea that the next raid completely invalidates all the progress from the current one. It just wears down on you, no? You get to 380 item level and boom, it becomes obsolete and meaningless in a few months. I know it's been like this for a while but it's just starting to wear down on me. What do you guys think?
That's how the game has always worked. You have to choose between progressive raids with catch up and invalidation or effectively a 1 raid tier expansion with no power progression.

What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?

Suggest some alternatives though! I'd be interested in hearing some fresh ideas.
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?


I think what the OP is getting at is that catchup mechanics (like warfronts) invalidate hard work earned by raiding and create a starvation of content by making old raids obsolete. In older expansions this wasn't a thing.

Compared to earlier WoW expansions, each raiding tier was a fundamental part to the gearing process. Onyxia's Lair, Molten Core, Kharazan, Tempest Keep, Magtheridon's Lair, Naxxramas (25), Ulduar, all of these raids never went obsolete.

To get to the higher level raids, you had to gear up using lower level raids. Mechanics like warfronts completely eliminate the need to do older content, and thus creates a starvation of content because most of the content in the game doesn't need to be done anymore.

Why do Uldir when warfronts start offering 385+ gear? Like I said previously, Molten Core, Kharazan, Naxx, these raids were always viable content because there was no alternative to progression (and if there was it was not as effective as old-tier raiding.)
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
That's how the game has always worked.

Not really.

The idea of gear resets for each Tier was more of a late TBC thing and went full throttle in Wrath. Prior to Badges dropping in Kara you really needed to progress through each Tier in order.
I have many reasons I stopped raiding last xpac. Obviously a few include Titanforge, Legendary items last xpac etc. I didn't like the artifact system til the end of the Xpac. I quit in Tomb but my main concerns were fixed when I came back at the end of legion. The fact that some casual player can out gear a dude that plays 12 hours a day due to luck and catchup mechanics is bull!@#$. Until Titanforge and Azerite type %^-* goes away I'll probably never raid mythics again. I mean why would I? I got a 385 socket piece out of a damn warfront. That is a god damn nightmare tbh. Warforging was fine in HFC and MoP w/e Being able to upgrade an item 35 lvls is retarded
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
That's how the game has always worked. You have to choose between progressive raids with catch up and invalidation or effectively a 1 raid tier expansion with no power progression.

What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?

Suggest some alternatives though! I'd be interested in hearing some fresh ideas.


It actually isn't until they started doing multiple difficulties there was a 13 ilvl difference between tiers max and usually half that between an end boss and pre end bosses of the next tier.

How can you be so consistently wrong do you have to work at it or?

I didn't replace probably half my BT gear before killing muru I certainly wasn't already at the base drop ilvl when I went in.

Plus catchup mechanics didn't exist until badge gear and then were only a few slots. And there wasn't a massive catchup like Argus until the sunwell isle and even then it was specific slots and a lot of badge farming not just drops from random mobs.

You used to actually need to progress through the game not just hop to the current tier.
10/18/2018 06:58 PMPosted by Mokgerah
OP is getting at is that catchup mechanics
I read nothing or got nothing on catchup mechanics. All I got was OP saying Raid 2 out does Raid 1 gear wise. Making Raid 1 gear irrelevant.
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
That's how the game has always worked. You have to choose between progressive raids with catch up and invalidation or effectively a 1 raid tier expansion with no power progression.

What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?

Suggest some alternatives though! I'd be interested in hearing some fresh ideas.


lmao, what? Seriously?

It wasnt that way all the way up until the introduction of LFR.

Raiding is supposed to be about progression, not just handing stuff out. LFR was a mistake that should never have come out in the first place, even Ghostcrawler, who invented/introduced that abomination, said that bringing LFR into this game is one of his biggest regrets.

If they really wanted to fix this jacked up system they have, they would bring back actual progression in raiding. Stop this nonsense with LFR, if they want to insist on keeping LFR then they should have it only drop gear that is equivalent to high ilvl quest gear, or heroic dungeon gear. LFR is there so people can see the raid and experience story, its not supposed to be for people to call it progression and think their badass because they beat an LFR.

Raids should start out early in the expansion just like they did in TBC and WotLK, where you always start gearing in the first raids released and work your way up through to the final boss of the expansion, that is progression, not this....thing we have today. It should consist of hitting max level on a character, doing dungeons for gear then moving to heroics then onto normal raids then heroic raids. Having 4 different versions of the same exact raid the only difference being numbers isn't fun or cool. Instead of 4 different versions of the same raid why can't we have 2 raids with 2 difficulties, or 4 raids with one difficulty like TBC was. We're getting less content out of almost every expac and its disgusting.
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
That's how the game has always worked. You have to choose between progressive raids with catch up and invalidation or effectively a 1 raid tier expansion with no power progression.

What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?

Suggest some alternatives though! I'd be interested in hearing some fresh ideas.


uhhh That isn't how it always worked.

You've just created a false binary. There was progression without trivial catch up mechanics. The catch up mechanics are exactly what completely invalidate the old raids. Why will anyone go into Uldir once Battle for Dazar'Alor comes out? There will be easy ways to grab some 370+ gear and go straight into the newest raid.
10/18/2018 07:08 PMPosted by Xathra
You used to actually need to progress through the game not just hop to the current tier.


This is kinda what I miss to be honest. I know it means people can't just join mid-way through the expansion but the damage the current philosophy does to character progression is far worse imho. Just watch Jeff Kaplan talk about raiding and you'll see what I mean, he nailed the philosophy and the direction it should take: end game.
Without catch up mechamism later tiers are experienced by less and less people. It may make you feel better about your toon but it's decreasing ROI for Blizzard.

If you like raiding and like the resources devoted to these raids you need to start worrying less about your epeen.

Blizzard is a company and they aren’t going to sink a lot of money into content people don’t see.

Devs talked about the issue of how little of the population saw Naxx in vanilla.
10/18/2018 07:38 PMPosted by Cryaisa
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
That's how the game has always worked. You have to choose between progressive raids with catch up and invalidation or effectively a 1 raid tier expansion with no power progression.

What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?

Suggest some alternatives though! I'd be interested in hearing some fresh ideas.


lmao, what? Seriously?

It wasnt that way all the way up until the introduction of LFR.

Raiding is supposed to be about progression, not just handing stuff out. LFR was a mistake that should never have come out in the first place, even Ghostcrawler, who invented/introduced that abomination, said that bringing LFR into this game is one of his biggest regrets.

If they really wanted to fix this jacked up system they have, they would bring back actual progression in raiding. Stop this nonsense with LFR, if they want to insist on keeping LFR then they should have it only drop gear that is equivalent to high ilvl quest gear, or heroic dungeon gear. LFR is there so people can see the raid and experience story, its not supposed to be for people to call it progression and think their badass because they beat an LFR.

Raids should start out early in the expansion just like they did in TBC and WotLK, where you always start gearing in the first raids released and work your way up through to the final boss of the expansion, that is progression, not this....thing we have today. It should consist of hitting max level on a character, doing dungeons for gear then moving to heroics then onto normal raids then heroic raids. Having 4 different versions of the same exact raid the only difference being numbers isn't fun or cool. Instead of 4 different versions of the same raid why can't we have 2 raids with 2 difficulties, or 4 raids with one difficulty like TBC was. We're getting less content out of almost every expac and its disgusting.


No and no and no and no and if they took out wow would die. Casuals keep the servers running. Idk why you all keep crying go earn your ilvl 455s and let me get 370s big whoop . It rrally doesnt effect you guys.

All you guys that do raid will have better higher gear anyways. Stop complaining .
No and no and no and no and if they took out wow would die. Casuals keep the servers running. Idk why you all keep crying go earn your ilvl 455s and let me get 370s big whoop . It rrally doesnt effect you guys.

All you guys that do raid will have better higher gear anyways. Stop complaining .


Nice copy and paste posting :P You act like there were no casuals playing the game during the many many years during which LFR did not exist. The absolute PEAK of World of Warcraft was a time with no LFR, trust me, there were many many casual players. More than there are now.

The game will be fine without LFR.
While I can somewhat agree with the sentiment, by the time LFR is released, most raiders should already be 400+ ilvl easy.
Aww cmon you dont think its fair people can do LFR and get the same quality of gear I currently am using from heroic! Its a super good idea!

Said nobody other than lfr heroes
10/18/2018 07:38 PMPosted by Cryaisa
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
That's how the game has always worked. You have to choose between progressive raids with catch up and invalidation or effectively a 1 raid tier expansion with no power progression.

What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?

Suggest some alternatives though! I'd be interested in hearing some fresh ideas.


lmao, what? Seriously?

It wasnt that way all the way up until the introduction of LFR.

Raiding is supposed to be about progression, not just handing stuff out. LFR was a mistake that should never have come out in the first place, even Ghostcrawler, who invented/introduced that abomination, said that bringing LFR into this game is one of his biggest regrets.

If they really wanted to fix this jacked up system they have, they would bring back actual progression in raiding. Stop this nonsense with LFR, if they want to insist on keeping LFR then they should have it only drop gear that is equivalent to high ilvl quest gear, or heroic dungeon gear. LFR is there so people can see the raid and experience story, its not supposed to be for people to call it progression and think their badass because they beat an LFR.

Raids should start out early in the expansion just like they did in TBC and WotLK, where you always start gearing in the first raids released and work your way up through to the final boss of the expansion, that is progression, not this....thing we have today. It should consist of hitting max level on a character, doing dungeons for gear then moving to heroics then onto normal raids then heroic raids. Having 4 different versions of the same exact raid the only difference being numbers isn't fun or cool. Instead of 4 different versions of the same raid why can't we have 2 raids with 2 difficulties, or 4 raids with one difficulty like TBC was. We're getting less content out of almost every expac and its disgusting.


I personally like the current difficulty levels and how the scaling works currently. Loads of people are still going through progression in Uldir. You can still work your way up through heroic and mythic dungeons, it's just at a faster pace, which I much prefer. You also have the option to go solo and progress through LFR/normal pugs solo if you want. Most of us who play the game don't have the time we use to have when we were young to devote to this game. This is a much friendlier way of dealing with those people's time constraints.

I guess to each their own. But that's why classic is being released isnt it? For people who like the older raids styles to go back to.

Also, we got plenty of content in Legion so Im not sure what you mean by us getting less content in xpacs. Its still early in BfA's life, i'm sure there us a lot more planned for the future. Im not necessarily defending BfA, I think they really need to address some issues (mainly the azerite system, class specific progression and GCD stuff), but I think the systems that were brought over from Legion are great.
10/18/2018 08:04 PMPosted by Dekudud
No and no and no and no and if they took out wow would die. Casuals keep the servers running. Idk why you all keep crying go earn your ilvl 455s and let me get 370s big whoop . It rrally doesnt effect you guys.

All you guys that do raid will have better higher gear anyways. Stop complaining .


Nice copy and paste posting :P You act like there were no casuals playing the game during the many many years during which LFR did not exist. The absolute PEAK of World of Warcraft was a time with no LFR, trust me, there were many many casual players. More than there are now.

The game will be fine without LFR.


Its diff now then it was back then ,wow is struggling rn as it is .
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
That's how the game has always worked. You have to choose between progressive raids with catch up and invalidation or effectively a 1 raid tier expansion with no power progression.

What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?

Suggest some alternatives though! I'd be interested in hearing some fresh ideas.

I suggested on my critique for blizzard that they utilize base gear and the crafting system to keep upgrading gears manually. Using components from breaking down other gears to add things like titanforging and sockets.
10/18/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Metrohaha
That's how the game has always worked. You have to choose between progressive raids with catch up and invalidation or effectively a 1 raid tier expansion with no power progression.

What are the other options?
The new raid can't come out and give the same gear uldir did. It would be far too easy, right?

Suggest some alternatives though! I'd be interested in hearing some fresh ideas.

This is not true at all.
You couldn't do BT without doing at least TK/SSC to get gear. Please stop spreading mistruths. It wasn't until LFR and what not was added that the game has become one big theme park.
I know it means people can't just join mid-way through the expansion


Precisely why the catch up exists. Or dont you want more players?

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