Why is BFA Failing - No Character Progression

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
10/28/2018 02:38 PMPosted by Mythôs
This is probably the first expansion where i haven't enjoyed the leveling. from 110-120 it just felt awful. The Azerite traits did not make up for no new skills. They need to ditch this anti-progression mindset they have or i will not buy the next expansion.

We need new skills for leveling. We need a reason to level in the first place. I don't think i've ever gone into an expansion and felt weaker for leveling. Why are we going into expansions and saying "Oh, what am i losing now?" everything up to MoP we would see new and awesome abilities/talents added... but not anymore.

This approach the devs are taking just isn't working. It felt bad in WoD. It felt bad in Legion. It feels bad now. I used to be excited for expansions. I remember back during school i would stay up past midnight just to play the expansions. I would order from a local Gamestop just to talk with other gamers about WoW during the midnight release.

What do the devs have against fun? I'm honestly starting to think that everything they've done from WoD to BfA is just spite. The classes are getting worse and i fully expect them to keep up the trend. I just don't have faith in them to fix it. Why did Kaplan and all the other passionate people leave WoW? I miss having people who would actually talk with us about the state of the game.

Blizzard used to be one of the absolute best companies out there. They would always deliver and make an amazing experience, even if it took a while. They wouldn't skimp on quality. Everything would come out when it was finished. But with BfA, that just didn't happen.

I really miss having fun..... I just can't bring myself to play anymore.


I'm with you buddy! The only reason is to make balancing easier. The result? Class/spec balance is the worst it's ever been...so, in conclusion all of our fun was removed cause...God only knows.
10/27/2018 10:55 PMPosted by Ornasse
10/26/2018 07:22 PMPosted by Athánasius

After bfa, we will have been 6 years(!) without new talents.


Wow, that really puts it into perspective.


When you put it that way, it makes me somewhat sick. Can they not afford class delopement? They act more like an Indie company with no money rather than a Million dollar Titan. Are they simply sucking their loyal fanbase dry at this point?
Many points here are very valid.... Ever since MOP, things started moving downhill quickly.

WOD left us hanging but at least we got one last tier of talents on a pure character progression perspective. Rings were pretty much a given for all, so yea....

Legion was supposed to change that. And it sort of did. Your artifacts were the source of character progression. As you unlocked more traits, you became more powerful. As you got legendaries, your character power took a significant jump.

BFA stripped all of us down to nothingness. That would have been okay if class design and class balance was good.

I get the storyline of it... "Your characters sacrificed most lot of their power to save Azeroth. And now as Azeroth bleeds, the horde and the alliance are left figuring out what to do with this newfound power".

Supposedly, Azerite is crazy powerful. As is evident from the various Azerite powered cannons / grenades / weaponry that we have seen in the storyline. Yet, you, as a wielder of Azerite empowered gears, cannot figure out how to augment your abilities with this Uber powerful stuff??? I mean wtf...

And let us not get into morally grey, as the first step in this is Magni asking us to stabilise this Azerite to not let it destroy us.

Ideally the final tier of each Azerite gear should be a talent enhancing item. One that grows with your heart of Azeroth.

Mythic dungeons should have dropped traits that let you clear / aim for mythic raids. Mythic raid gear traits should have been more powerful than dungeon drops. For e.g. a shadow priests wearing the Uldir Azerite pieces could have the following 'final' traits:

Shoulders: doubles the insanity generation by 100% for 15 seconds after casting void eruption.

Helm: For each stack of Voidform, all damage you do increases by 0.5%/1%.

Chest: Upon reaching X stacks of Voidform, you become master of the void, stopping your insanity drain for 10 seconds.

Basically a 3-tiered set bonus that kind of requires you to have all 3 pieces to reach optimal power. Make chest drop off of final bosses etc. The durations listed can be for heroic+ drops, or even mythic. Normal or lfr should have these durations at half or less.

Or BM examples:

Shoulders: Beastial Wrath lasts for 15 seconds longer.

Helm: while Beastial Wrath is active, Cobra shot hits two enemies, or deals 50% more damage if it only hits one targetsl.

Chest: Each time you activate Beastial Wrath, you summon an azerite empowered effigy of your current pet that lasts 8 seconds. This pet mimics your pet's attacks and is summoned directly at your target and deals 300% extra damage.

I'm sure there are people who can come up with better spell interactions with Azerite traits.

In my mind Azerite gear should have been like old school glyphs. Allowing you to customise your spells to tailor make your character. PVP gear should have empowered PVP traits - making them clear best choices even at lower iLvL than raid gear.
How are they going to address the extra stacks of haste,crit,mastery we get from our Uldir azerite gear in the next raid? Do we have to start all over again to build back up to 27% haste etc? If so that is going to feel shi*ty.
After 2 months of playing BFA returning from a 6 year break I'm letting my subscription lapse.

Tired of dailies lol.

I'd rather run around for hundreds of hours between quests in private server vanilla with 200ms pings than play this expansion anymore.

Feels bad because I think there is a ton of potential but Blizzard just doesn't get it.
10/29/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Chaysee
How are they going to address the extra stacks of haste,crit,mastery we get from our Uldir azerite gear in the next raid? Do we have to start all over again to build back up to 27% haste etc? If so that is going to feel shi*ty.


It absolutely will completely go away, and it is going to feel shi*ty.

And yes it is on purpose, and no, they don't care what everyone thinks about it.
I agree with a lot of what the OP said.

First off Blizzard should have incorporated every artifact into a baseline 110 power for each spec just to feel like you actually gained something permanent from the two years of grinding. The way Blizzard did things made it feel like you wasted two years of character development. Are we just at the start of that again? It certainly feels like it.

Second the leveling experience makes it feel like you’re not any stronger over several batches because of scaled zones.

It’s not just one thing or another that makes it bad. It’s when you combine some of the things mentioned in this topic that makes you feel like there is no progression in character outside of getting better gear.
10/29/2018 10:34 AMPosted by Sybille
I agree with a lot of what the OP said.

First off Blizzard should have incorporated every artifact into a baseline 110 power for each spec just to feel like you actually gained something permanent from the two years of grinding. The way Blizzard did things made it feel like you wasted two years of character development. Are we just at the start of that again? It certainly feels like it.

Second the leveling experience makes it feel like you’re not any stronger over several batches because of scaled zones.

It’s not just one thing or another that makes it bad. It’s when you combine some of the things mentioned in this topic that makes you feel like there is no progression in character outside of getting better gear.


It just seems like such a missed opportunity. They could have simply taken 3 artifact abilities from each spec and made a new 120 tier. The code already existed, the legendaries had already been balanced and playtested, and some classes did get to keep one so we know they weren't against it.

Why not give some character progression for one instead of making us rent all our abilities? They just don't get it anymore, and think people are fine with pressing an arbitrary reset button whenever they feel like it.

We aren't.
10/29/2018 12:25 PMPosted by Arkelion
10/29/2018 10:34 AMPosted by Sybille
I agree with a lot of what the OP said.

First off Blizzard should have incorporated every artifact into a baseline 110 power for each spec just to feel like you actually gained something permanent from the two years of grinding. The way Blizzard did things made it feel like you wasted two years of character development. Are we just at the start of that again? It certainly feels like it.

Second the leveling experience makes it feel like you’re not any stronger over several batches because of scaled zones.

It’s not just one thing or another that makes it bad. It’s when you combine some of the things mentioned in this topic that makes you feel like there is no progression in character outside of getting better gear.


It just seems like such a missed opportunity. They could have simply taken 3 artifact abilities from each spec and made a new 120 tier. The code already existed, the legendaries had already been balanced and playtested, and some classes did get to keep one so we know they weren't against it.

Why not give some character progression for one instead of making us rent all our abilities? They just don't get it anymore, and think people are fine with pressing an arbitrary reset button whenever they feel like it.

We aren't.


Yeah, if our characters go back to baseline power in 9.0 with nothing new to show for it, I won't be purchasing it.
Terrible Classes/Specs.

Most players can endure through a lot of bad systems that Blizz implements, but when your class/spec is bad there is just no way to have fun with any other aspects of the game.
10/27/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Kabbie
On the other hand (and this is just my personal experience), I played a SV hunter from Wrath to WOD, and fundamentally, the character didn't change a lot once I hit level 80, but I didn't care.

Its mechanics were basically the same at 80, 85, 90, to 100 with little to no progression in sight: pop a DOT, pray for a LNL, use Explosive Shot procs, trap stuff, and the only character progression SV hunters enjoyed were increased mobility, higher LNL chances, and more ways to apply DOTs with every expansion. Same four buttons - Explosive Shot, Cobra Shot, Black Arrow Serpent Sting - for ST, same traps for CC - Freezing/Tar and Frost - and same gameplay for six years.

No real progression, but still fun. It was like the chocolate chip cookie of WOW: it's very simple, but very satisfying.


You had tier sets that significantly changed gameplay (almost) every raid tier though. That's just gone now. Now its just "oh wow a slightly higher # on an RNG proc, how !@#$ing boring"

10/29/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Chaysee
How are they going to address the extra stacks of haste,crit,mastery we get from our Uldir azerite gear in the next raid? Do we have to start all over again to build back up to 27% haste etc? If so that is going to feel shi*ty.


This is a huge one that I haven't seen mentioned much. I noticed this right away. I expect it to be a bigger issue when the next raid comes out and people realize that even your azerite gear resets because Origination Array is only available in Uldir. It's like getting a tier set bonus that immediately becomes Legacy gear at the next raid tier. Blizzard has completely lost their mind with these garbage systems.
OP, I feel you! I was having a hard time trying to find an alt to level. All the classes are terrible boring or broken to me. After much testing, I decided to level my priest, to heal as disc in arena, that's the only one that seemed to be a challenge. I love my shaman too, but damn, I tried to level him, both dps specs are broken and boring. After leveling my priest though, I'll be done with alts. And I'll be doing so little as well, 'cause endgame is now a loot lottery, there's no more vendors or something tangible to pursue.
BFA is terrible. Azerite armor is a complete mess, getting 370 pieces tngat are worse than 340 pieces, no controllable way to farm better pieces yet (I understand this is coming in 8.1), class balance is horrible (shaman main).
As a shaman I can’t even get invites to plus 9 or 10 keys to get the best loot chest weekly, regardless of spec, and unfortunately I don’t have hours to spend sitting in ques hoping someone takes me out of pity. This is the first time in the history of my playing (since early cata) that I don’t want to play at max level. I log in Tuesday do my island expeditions, the highest mythic + I can get into (usually 7), then I log out and level a mag har hunter the rest of the time I play.
I’m questing on a level 55 hunter rather than playing at max level!!!! And I’m in no rush to get him to max. I hit 120 on my alt Druid this week, haven’t touched him since, when hunter hits 120 I’ll probably level something else, cause at least leveling o get character progression and to play the game instead of sitting in ques to get declined.
10/30/2018 03:55 AMPosted by Supertide
As a shaman I can’t even get invites to plus 9 or 10 keys to get the best loot chest weekly, regardless of spec, and unfortunately I don’t have hours to spend sitting in ques hoping someone takes me out of pity.

While I haven't even bothered doing any Mythic+ this expansion due to hours of declines, you won't get any sympathy from people here. The usual response is, unfortunately, start your own group and don't mess up someone else's key.
Back in my day, when i leveled i got a talent point that i could put anywhere. sometimes it was a boring percentage increase, sometimes it was a class defining ability. either way it always felt like i was getting stronger in some way. nowadays though, oh boy, there is just nothing engaging about azerite at all.
I just log in to do heroic raid with my guild and that's about it. The game just isn't fun.
-leveling up i just lost abilities or effects

-gain nothing new since mop, just rental effects and talents that replace removed talents

-gcd change just killed fluidity of combat i've been used to for 10 years

-rewards are all garbage now. world quests, missions that take 5 days and give 80g. loot is rng.

-azerite sucks. never had to sim so much in my life.

-with tier you actually had class sets you wanted to farm, now everyone just looks the same and raiding is meh.

-dev keeps revamping hunter specs every xpac and they're still worse than they were 5 years ago.
After watching the Q&A we have no info on class design, why is it so hard for them to answer any questions regarding class design and character progression?

Honestly its just so frustrating, good thing I have come to terms with how the game is progressing and just decided to go play other games, I'll keep an eye out from time to time but I doubt anything will change until next expansion.
I agree with everything on the original post. To add a few things as far as character progression is concerned and why BfA feels unfinished:

- Uldir wasn't tied to the story in terms of quests and achievements. In other words storywise you had no reason to enter the raid. Only recently they've added the quest for killing G'huun and dipping the dagger in his blood and that's it. But a large portion of the playerbase had already killed him in all difficulties (except mythic ofc). Do you remember the start of Legion and how the story and artifacts were relevant to your progression in Emerald Nightmare?

- Reputation milestones that previously offered rewards do nothing for your character now. Exalted with Champions of Azeroth doesn't even give +ilvl for the heart. Exalted with all current BfA reputations doesn't even offer an achievement. What do you get? 3 mounts, 355 gear (seriously?) and a few pets and tabards. Honorbound exalted doesn't progress the storyline or even get you some kind of cinematic with Sylvanas or a quest or anything. You just get exalted and nothing happens.

- As mentioned in the OP what's the reason to get to 120? It just feels like an obligation that's traditionally present in every expansion but in BfA it just happens. No talents to unlock, no abilities, no sense of getting stronger or unique as a class/spec.

In general BfA fails horribly in terms of character progression imo. And I can only assume that happened because the x-pack was released too soon and that's also the reason so many things seem unfinished. It's no wonder the community are calling it Beta for Azeroth. Lots of aspects of the expansion do feel like a beta indeed.
Yooooo you guys remember how every expansion you lost your big legendary, tier pieces, cool trinkets, good itemisation, nice weapons etc and had to be stuck with trash for a few weeks until raid came out? Then you started that process again?

Yeah, they did the negative part of it losing all those leggos and effects but there wasn't anything to replace it. Azerite pieces are not remotely a replacement for a combination of legendary effects, tier sets, cool trinkets AND artifacts. Too much was lost for too little replacement. You expect to lose things every expansion and go from having heaps of good stats to trash again. That's part of the fun, right, but it's not fun to lose so very much to gain so little back.

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