Are the cinematics even canon?

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11/06/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Darethy
11/06/2018 10:48 AMPosted by Treng
... Listen, we were at the battle of lordaeron. The cutscene never happens. The Alliance side does get a "For the Alliance moment" but the Horde definitely doesn't get its "For the Horde!"

Sylvanas never breaks a wall tower.

Saurfang is never afield.

Saurfang DOES run into Anduin though. In the courtyard. Before he's locked up in manacles. And Anduin walks up to him, unguarded. Saurfang could've killed him then.

He doesn't, though.

And now we know why.


So wait, the argument now is that the ENTIRE SEQUENCE THAT STARTS BFA just....never happened? the cinematic is completely non-canonical?

Cause if that's the case, a whole lotta threads are going to need reframing.


11/06/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Treng
11/06/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Darethy
...

So wait, the argument now is that the ENTIRE SEQUENCE THAT STARTS BFA just....never happened? the cinematic is completely non-canonical?

Cause if that's the case, a whole lotta threads are going to need reframing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSJr3dXZfcg

What parts of this match up with what you experienced?


11/06/2018 10:58 AMPosted by Darethy
11/06/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Treng
...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSJr3dXZfcg

What parts of this match up with what you experienced?


None of them, but we were also inside the city for fairly large portion of the battle and that cinematic either transpires at some point during the battle, or Blizzard needs to put up giant disclaimer on this trailer that goes "HEY YOU KNOW THIS THING? IT NEVER HAPPENED." if we can't even trust the intro cinematic to be a true event, can we trust literally anything?


How can the cinematics be canon if our eyes aren't canon?

But seriously, this is where we're at now. If we cannot even agree on WHAT WE SEE being canon or not, how can we agree on anything because at THAT point we're operating in two different realities, not over just one questline, but the entire story itself.
It's a hype video. Sylvanas, Anduin, Saurfang, and Genn didn't all meet up in melee range. If they had, this would've been over long before. None of the events match up to what either the Horde nor Alliance player experience. There isn't even a wallbreaker close enough to the wall.

https://youtu.be/jSJr3dXZfcg?t=100
https://i.imgur.com/rPSYg5W.jpg
BUT ALL THE CINEMATIC'S ARE HYPE VIDEOS, THEY EXIST PURELY TO GET US EXCITED FOR THINGS.

Generally the reason we would be HYPE about something because it's actually a thing that would happen, no?
You are the embodiment of falacious argumentation.

You make no effort to know the character you are criicizing.

You take stuff out of context to create a caricature of an idea for you to debate.

You feel the need to try and publicaly ashame people for disagreeing with you cause you know you are unable to prove your point.

Go back to general. And leave the arguments to the adults
11/06/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Darethy
at THAT point we're operating in two different realities, not over just one questline, but the entire story itself.

Blizzard is trying its hand at quantum storytelling. The narrative exists in an uncertain plot superposition until the story is fully published to the customers. Then the probabilistic story wavefunction collapses into a single canon and the other quantum position becomes non-canon.
11/06/2018 11:19 AMPosted by Darethy
BUT ALL THE CINEMATIC'S ARE HYPE VIDEOS, THEY EXIST PURELY TO GET US EXCITED FOR THINGS.
Okay. None of the other cinematics have portrayed events in which we personally take part, though.

They stand apart from BFA's.
The intro cinematic takes place prior to the Siege of Lordaeron scenario. They presumably clash again, more fighting is done, and then Sylvanas orders Saurfang back behind the wall to prepare for unleashing the Azerite-powered tank.

They were fighting before the player characters arrive and there's a lull as the Horde player evacuates the rest of the civilians and as the Alliance player rallies with Anduin and Greymane.

The tides of battle ebb and flow.
I know the MoP one seems to be completely wrong with what actually happens in the expansion. More of that Metaphor Storytelling I guess.

Meanwhile the WotLK, Cata, WoD and Legion ones are canon. I have no idea what they are.
Gentle reminder:
11/06/2018 11:18 AMPosted by Treng
There isn't even a wallbreaker close enough to the wall.

https://youtu.be/jSJr3dXZfcg?t=100
https://i.imgur.com/rPSYg5W.jpg
11/06/2018 11:20 AMPosted by Zaluzan
You are the embodiment of falacious argumentation.

You make no effort to know the character you are criicizing.

You take stuff out of context to create a caricature of an idea for you to debate.

You feel the need to try and publicaly ashame people for disagreeing with you cause you know you are unable to prove your point.

Go back to general. And leave the arguments to the adults


Yes, yes, yes, you're childish, so on and so forth, and we're so mature because...

No really, this is nothing to do about shaming. If we CANNOT AGREE about this one thing, then we can't agree on anything, because we have two different stories.

And the only thing we have to go off this being non canon is not a disclaimer from Blizzard but rather....tower placement after the battle and that we've seen the battle in it's entirety?
Considering Anduin references events from that cinematic, yes, they are canon.
1) It's laughable to assume every tiny detail from the cinematic would match up in game.

2) The ebb and flow of battle is screwy. For all we know, considering that the battle is already well underway when either the Horde or Alliance get there, that the battle could have gone on for any length of time.
11/06/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Baljin
Considering Anduin references events from that cinematic, yes, they are canon.
Does he? Because Saurfang does meet Anduin in the event. He isn't bound. His axe is at his side. Anduin strolls right up to him, unguarded.

Saurfang could've killed him then. He didn't.

And now we know why.

Edit: It also makes more narrative sense. If it's at this moment that he chose to spare Anduin's life, he knows Sylvanas is alone in the throneroom. The Horde has escaped.
11/06/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Darethy
11/06/2018 11:20 AMPosted by Zaluzan
You are the embodiment of falacious argumentation.

You make no effort to know the character you are criicizing.

You take stuff out of context to create a caricature of an idea for you to debate.

You feel the need to try and publicaly ashame people for disagreeing with you cause you know you are unable to prove your point.

Go back to general. And leave the arguments to the adults


Yes, yes, yes, you're childish, so on and so forth, and we're so mature because...

No really, this is nothing to do about shaming. If we CANNOT AGREE about this one thing, then we can't agree on anything, because we have two different stories.

And the only thing we have to go off this being non canon is not a disclaimer from Blizzard but rather....tower placement after the battle and that we've seen the battle in it's entirety?


The guy said we on the scenario never saw the fight that happened on the cinematic. Wich we didn't.

And your response that it is there for everyone to see is to put words in his mouth and claim he said the cinematics aren t cannon. And he never said that.

You literaly made this up and started a topic based on this distortion you made.

Again. Childish as hell and it shows lots on insecurity
11/06/2018 11:29 AMPosted by Treng
11/06/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Baljin
Considering Anduin references events from that cinematic, yes, they are canon.
Does he? Because Saurfang does meet Anduin in the event. He isn't bound. His axe is at his side. Anduin strolls right up to him, unguarded.

Saurfang could've killed him then. He didn't.

And now we know why.

Edit: It also makes more narrative sense. If it's at this moment that he chose to spare Anduin's life, he knows Sylvanas is alone in the throneroom. The Horde has escaped.


Could he have? would Saurfang just beat Anduin in a one on one and if he could, would Anduin internalize it in that way?

What makes the most narrative sense is Anduin is talking about him being knocked aside, a clearly hostile action where Anduin is at his most vulnerable. The only thing we really have to discount this is that the PC isn't involved in that, but that could of happened at multiple points during the battle for Lordaeron.

That's a whole lot of stuff to infer without an official word from Blizzard for several months.

11/06/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Zaluzan


The guy said we on the scenario never saw the fight that happened on the cinematic. Wich we didn't.

And your response that it is there for everyone to see is to put words in his mouth and claim he said the cinematics aren t cannon. And he never said that.

You literaly made this up and started a topic based on this distortion you made.

Again. Childish as hell and it shows lots on insecurity


That's idiotic, the claim is because we never saw that fight happen that it doesn't count. It's incongruous with our version of events, which extends to the tower. Thus either part, or all, of the cinematic has to be non-canon to fit within that framework.

What you are doing is distorting my opinions because I don't agree with your narrative or interpretation of events. Or you simply don't understand what is being discussed, in which case fair enough.
Of all the things we can debate about after Blizzcon, this is what we're going with?
Zaluzan, I have argued, debated, and discussed things with Darethy for a while now. He may have his moments of hyperbole, but he is by and large a poster I respecg if not agree with. I have never really known him to do egregious troll like behavior. You are doing exactly the kinds of things you claim he is. So *Shrug*

@Grandblade it actually is a meaningful discussion to be had. Because it would definitely reframe a lot of other debates.
11/06/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Grandblade
Of all the things we can debate about after Blizzcon, this is what we're going with?


Look Grandblade, this is literally square one. If we can't even reach an agreement on this, can we agree on anything?

I mean, WE WON'T AGREE ON ANYTHING ANYWAY.

But still.
Could he have? would Saurfang just beat Anduin in a one on one and if he could, would Anduin internalize it in that way?
Saurfang is bar one the most legendary warrior of the Horde, barring Grom. Broxigar would top him if anyone knew his feat, but they don't.

I have no doubt on both points that Saurfang could solo Anduin, and Anduin knows it.

To quote Saurfang: Could kill you now.
https://youtu.be/LKZ7ygLTR0g?t=87
What makes the most narrative sense is Anduin is talking about him being knocked aside, a clearly hostile action where Anduin is at his most vulnerable.
It doesn't make narrative sense that Saurfang would be willing to sacrifice Horde lives to kill Sylvanas. He spends the entire event trying to convince us not to use the blight and instead save Horde lives.

Everything lines up if the events we experience are true. Not everything lines up if the cinematic is true -- including ingame placements of broken wallbreakers.

That's a whole lot of stuff to infer without an official word from Blizzard for several months.
I figure they think we're smart enough to pick up on that the leadership of the Alliance and Horde didn't run into the middle of the field and fight it out. The logistics alone are staggering. How did they get back? How are they, both sides, still fine when you arrive? How did Saurfang make it into Undercity? Why would he leave the warchief, Zekhan, and the Horde during such a dire moment? Why would the Alliance let them retreat? Why would the Horde let them retreat?
I agree with the premise of this thread. If they are going to put out cinematics and then be like PSYCHE!!! LOL that never happened!!! hahaha LOL! got you! ROOL OF COOL, YO!!!! Then that is BS. It's one thing to retcon small details of obscure lore decades later to develop the story, but if they are retconning stuff the second it comes out, wtf..?

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