Are the cinematics even canon?

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11/06/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Darethy
Edit: It is a black omen indeed when i'm agreeing with Akiyass.


Oh god... no....
11/06/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Akiyass
11/06/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Darethy
Edit: It is a black omen indeed when i'm agreeing with Akiyass.


Oh god... no....


I had the same reaction too, i'll need to wash for days.
11/06/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Darethy
Second, the very fact that Saurfang gives up in the first place is indication in and of itself of a willingness to let other people die.
There's a vast difference in being so shocked at a stage of mass murder that you have to inspect it for yourself, and willingly allowing the Alliance to kill your people.

Saurfang is STILL fighting in the cinematic after he knocks Anduin down. He is NOT fighting after he witnesses Sylvanas's honorless travesty.

Again. My argument works even if the cinematic is canon. Yours specifically does not.

-Cinematic Saurfang has no reason to believe Anduin will survive Blight.
-Cinematic Saurfang is still fighting after the blow.
-Saurfang only stops fighting after Sylvanas mass enslaves the Horde.
-Saurfang seems shocked that she would kill the Horde and enslave them.
-Saurfang is apalled at what she has done.
-Saurfang has a chance to kill Anduin in the courtyard in game.
-Saurfang knows the Horde is gone.
-Saurfang knows Sylvanas is alone.
-Saurfang knows Jaina can dispell the Blight.
-Saurfang doesn't try to kill Anduin.

11/06/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Darethy
This is kind of a heavy topic for a video game but, suicide is selfish and cowardly.
I'm not someone who's served in one war, muchless... five? I've never experienced war-time PTSD, but I can tell you stories about my grandpa.
That's kind of the point really. Saurfang can still fight, and kill Alliance soldiers under the logic that he's protecting his people. But on the wider scale in letting Anduin go in that snap moment of decision, he's caused many more Horde deaths. If Saurfang is so depressed that he's willing to go out and die, making a choice like that without thinking of the long term consequences is completely in character.

He's clearly conflicted when Anduin comes back to him in Lost Honor, his first words are 'could kill you now' as if the choice is still bouncing around in his head. Saurfang's defining character so far is not conviction, it is indecision and grief, it's basically the whole point of him talking about the difference between loyalty and honor when we go to free him from the jail cell.

And indecision...gets people killed.
11/06/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Darethy
And indecision...gets people killed.

To quote my mother, a retired military intelligence officer:

"not doing anything is a decision, and it's usually the wrong one"
11/06/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Darethy
That's kind of the point really. Saurfang can still fight, and kill Alliance soldiers under the logic that he's protecting his people. But on the wider scale in letting Anduin go in that snap moment of decision, he's caused many more Horde deaths.
But you haven't sufficiently proved that the battle in the cinematic was when he stayed his hand. Saurfang states: I hoped you would stop her. He has suffered direct trauma in the event. He has decided he cannot be part of her horde in the event.

He has not decided that in the cinematic.

11/06/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Darethy
He's clearly conflicted when Anduin comes back to him in Lost Honor, his first words are 'could kill you now' as if the choice is still bouncing around in his head.
Well, yeah. I imagine that I, too, would be sick of being locked in a cage.

11/06/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Darethy
Saurfang's defining character so far is not conviction, it is indecision and grief, it's basically the whole point of him talking about the difference between loyalty and honor when we go to free him from the jail cell.
He doesn't show any indecision after the Battle for Lordaeron starts until Sylvanas enslaves the Horde. That includes the cinematic.
Blind loyalty also gets people killed. Witnessing Sylvanas doing what she is doing, Saurfang is confronted with a lose-lose scenario. Blindly fall in line behind his Warcheif and participate in the slaughter that he swore, to Garrosh in Warsong hold:

"I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes..."

Or to take up arms against Sylvanas, resulting in Horde Deaths. This is a very consistent Saurfang... He's never been a leader, he's a follower. Right now, he is forced with a decision that he naturally resists. Suicide was his game-plan.... that plan failed with Zekhan's interference. Now he struggles with a new solution.
That's only if you believe however, that Anduin would think of and refer to the fight in the courtyard as a chance for Saurfang to kill him. If that is indeed what he's referring to, it's not nearly as well communicated as him running into Anduin, and knocking him down when he could of easily swung at him and just took his head off.

Lost honor likewise, in those opening words indicates that the indecision is still there, that he doesn't really know what to do except just sit in his cell. Being there is letting people die, giving up at Lordaeron is going to let people die, he's the premier commander of the Horde who left in the middle of a war. People will, and have, died because of that choice already. If his plan was to abandon the Horde and find some way to kill Sylvanas outside of it, there's no way that doesn't result in the deaths of his people. It's a sacrifice for the greater good, for better or worse.

11/06/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Akiyass
Blind loyalty also gets people killed. Witnessing Sylvanas doing what she is doing, Saurfang is confronted with a lose-lose scenario. Blindly fall in line behind his Warcheif and participate in the slaughter that he swore, to Garrosh in Warsong hold:

"I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes..."

Or to take up arms against Sylvanas, resulting in Horde Deaths. This is a very consistent Saurfang... He's never been a leader, he's a follower. Right now, he is forced with a decision that he naturally resists. Suicide was his game-plan.... that plan failed with Zekhan's interference. Now he struggles with a new solution.


Sure and I don't disagree. But everything has a price, and if Saurfang is willing to let Horde blood spill by leaving his position, then there's no reason to believe he wouldn't let blood spill to kill Sylvanas at Lordaeron in that moment.
I had been assuming that the hype/cutscene for the Battle of Loderon was just another version of the fight we have outside the walls. The part before the blight or even the tank, I suppose. Not that it matches up all that well, but that's kind of typical.

Just a reminder, I think we are all being a bit too respectful of the U.S. corporate franchise meaning of canon. Everthing my character does in game is canon for that character's story. I don't expect it to be reflected in the official canon, but that doesn't mean my character didn't do those things. It's two parallel canons. The problem is, Bliz is quite sloppy, so their is official franchise canon, and in-game canon, and frequently retconned book canon. And the in-game canon is often extremely contradictory between the factions. So the result is, even when we see something happen, we have wait for some Blizzard press release (or random dev Tweet) to tell us whether it really happened or not.
11/06/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Darethy
Sure and I don't disagree. But everything has a price, and if Saurfang is willing to let Horde blood spill by leaving his position, then there's no reason to believe he wouldn't let blood spill to kill Sylvanas at Lordaeron in that moment.


I am not sure if he is "willing" to spill Horde Blood, or have Horde blood be spilled, but rather that no matter what he does, Horde blood will be spilled regardless, and that's why he has been so hesitant to do anything.
11/06/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Sulai
The intro cinematic takes place prior to the Siege of Lordaeron scenario. They presumably clash again, more fighting is done, and then Sylvanas orders Saurfang back behind the wall to prepare for unleashing the Azerite-powered tank.

They were fighting before the player characters arrive and there's a lull as the Horde player evacuates the rest of the civilians and as the Alliance player rallies with Anduin and Greymane.

The tides of battle ebb and flow.


Yeah that's pretty much what I assumed as well
11/06/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Darethy
it's not nearly as well communicated as him running into Anduin, and knocking him down when he could of easily swung at him and just took his head off.

But that isn't what happens in the cinematic. You see in the very next shot that the only reason he hasn't followed up that attack is because Genn has hold of his axe. Knocking Anduin on his back is a good way to set up a killing blow. Genn grabbing his axe is not a choice Saurfang made.

Meanwhile, not attacking an unguarded man? That's a specific choice that Saurfang made.

And Saurfang is suicidal. Attacking Anduin is a good way to guarantee the death he wants.
11/06/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Darethy
Lost honor likewise, in those opening words indicates that the indecision is still there, that he doesn't really know what to do except just sit in his cell. Being there is letting people die, giving up at Lordaeron is going to let people die, he's the premier commander of the Horde who left in the middle of a war. People will, and have, died because of that choice already. If his plan was to abandon the Horde and find some way to kill Sylvanas outside of it, there's no way that doesn't result in the deaths of his people. It's a sacrifice for the greater good, for better or worse.
None of this means that he was indecisive in the cinematic.
But that isn't what happens in the cinematic.


Why did he strike Anduin non-lethally in the first place. This is the guy who "Can cut down 10 enemies with a single blow" but he is going to take more than one blow to bring down a teenaged boy?

11/06/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Treng
None of this means that he was indecisive in the cinematic.


He's very clearly indecisive.
11/06/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Akiyass
11/06/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Darethy
Sure and I don't disagree. But everything has a price, and if Saurfang is willing to let Horde blood spill by leaving his position, then there's no reason to believe he wouldn't let blood spill to kill Sylvanas at Lordaeron in that moment.


I am not sure if he is "willing" to spill Horde Blood, or have Horde blood be spilled, but rather that no matter what he does, Horde blood will be spilled regardless, and that's why he has been so hesitant to do anything.


Paralysis, yes. No matter what happens people will die, so in a moment he just picks whatever choice pops into his head as being stronger then and there, which comes to a head in Lost Honor when he decisively wants to stop Sylvanas.

11/06/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Treng
11/06/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Darethy
it's not nearly as well communicated as him running into Anduin, and knocking him down when he could of easily swung at him and just took his head off.

But that isn't what happens in the cinematic. You see in the very next shot that the only reason he hasn't followed up that attack is because Genn has hold of his axe. Knocking Anduin on his back is a good way to set up a killing blow. Genn grabbing his axe is not a choice Saurfang made.

Meanwhile, not attacking an unguarded man? That's a specific choice that Saurfang made.

And Saurfang is suicidal. Attacking Anduin is a good way to guarantee the death he wants.
11/06/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Darethy
Lost honor likewise, in those opening words indicates that the indecision is still there, that he doesn't really know what to do except just sit in his cell. Being there is letting people die, giving up at Lordaeron is going to let people die, he's the premier commander of the Horde who left in the middle of a war. People will, and have, died because of that choice already. If his plan was to abandon the Horde and find some way to kill Sylvanas outside of it, there's no way that doesn't result in the deaths of his people. It's a sacrifice for the greater good, for better or worse.
None of this means that he was indecisive in the cinematic.


The debate is not with swing two, it's with swing one. He didn't NEED to knock Anduin aside, that looks like just as opportune moment as the court of Lordaeron to just gut him on the spot.

And all that stuff, coupled with his words, does mean on some level he's conflicted. His entire arc screams internal conflict from the start of the War of Thorns until now, if he's willing to stand on the side and let people die then it's really not that much different from choosing to shoulder Anduin to the ground rather then immediately cleave him in two.
11/06/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Akiyass
Why did he strike Anduin non-lethally in the first place
I answered that in my post. Knocking Anduin onto his back makes him prone to a kill shot. We see the very next shot that Genn has grabbed Saurfang's axe, and that he is the reason Saurfang has not followed up said attack.

If I stun you does that mean I'm not trying to kill you?
11/06/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Akiyass
This is the guy who "Can cut down 10 enemies with a single blow" but he is going to take more than one blow to bring down a teenaged boy?
We don't see him kill ten people in a single blow in the cinematic at all. It's a reference to how he was meme status in vanilla.
11/06/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Akiyass
He's very clearly indecisive.
Where in the cinematic do you see that?

11/06/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Darethy
The debate is not with swing two, it's with swing one. He didn't NEED to knock Anduin aside, that looks like just as opportune moment as the court of Lordaeron to just gut him on the spot.
D-do you not know how armor works?

Saurfang very specifically knocked Anduin's helmet off.
11/06/2018 01:06 PMPosted by Darethy
And all that stuff, coupled with his words, does mean on some level he's conflicted. His entire arc screams internal conflict from the start of the War of Thorns until now, if he's willing to stand on the side and let people die then it's really not that much different from choosing to shoulder Anduin to the ground rather then immediately cleave him in two.
Again, do you not know how armor works?

edit: The very obvious answer is that Blizzard didn't want Anduin to die there, but wanted to show that Saurfang was badass.
I don't think Blizzard knows how armor works, if they would we'd have intricate discussions about why swords can't pierce through plate and why gamberson isn't more prominent in our medieval fantasy setting. I really doubt that Saurfang planned to knock Anduin on his back, knowing his helmet would fly off, and then decapitate him.

I mean Blizzard could of been thinking of that, but it's never been a concern they have had before.
I answered that in my post. Knocking Anduin onto his back makes him prone to a kill shot. We see the very next shot that Genn has grabbed Saurfang's axe, and that he is the reason Saurfang has not followed up said attack.If I stun you does that mean I'm not trying to kill you?


No, all forms of martial arts with medieval weaponry teaches that one should pursue the killing blow with the least number of strikes. You see that in rapier fencing, Kendo, German school of fencing, Fiore Dei Liberi's Fior di Battaglia, Flos Duellatorum. Saurfang, as a seasoned warrior, intentionally struck Anduin non-lethally... otherwise, we are assuming he is very bad at fighting.

We don't see him kill ten people in a single blow in the cinematic at all. It's a reference to how he was meme status in vanilla.


It was said so by Zekhan, which means its part of his canon reputation. An exaggeration perhaps, but clearly a testiment to his combat ability, which means striking Anduin non-lethally was intentional.

Where in the cinematic do you see that?


Bruh, take a look at him....
Anduin couldn't be killed in one blow because Anduin couldn't be killed in the story. So, they showed Saurfang setting up a killing blow -- knocking Anduin's helmet off and knocking him prone and helpless on his back. Then they have Genn intervene to save him.

Saurfang didn't just willingly pull back.
*Rubs temples*

So the answer is, we have no answer. Because the only answers require us to assume Blizzards intention. REGARDLESS....

The cinematic's should always be taken as canon until said otherwise, otherwise basically nothing else we have can be taken as canon.

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