Are the cinematics even canon?

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11/06/2018 02:01 PMPosted by Treng
He wanted to die. Attacking Anduin, killing Anduin would guarantee he would be killed. Anduin approached him unguarded. All of his soldiers were well behind him. Saurfang's hand was right next to his axe.


We don't see this at all though. We have no reason to think this happened. You are pulling things out of thin air.
11/06/2018 11:18 AMPosted by Treng
It's a hype video. Sylvanas, Anduin, Saurfang, and Genn didn't all meet up in melee range. If they had, this would've been over long before. None of the events match up to what either the Horde nor Alliance player experience. There isn't even a wallbreaker close enough to the wall.

https://youtu.be/jSJr3dXZfcg?t=100
https://i.imgur.com/rPSYg5W.jpg


This is absurd. Treng, you have a history of discounting events that don't match up with your bias of what the story *should* be (e.g. in another thread you claimed that the scene of Sylvansas sacrificing herself to try to save a mother and child from Arthas was non-canon because it didn't match your thesis that she was always a sociopath).

Not only are the cutscenes canon, this particular cutscene and Saurfang sparing Anduin is directly referenced in "Lost Honour."

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. The bedrock rule of this forum, that we need to function, has always been that canon is canon, and includes all of Blizzard's official story publications.
11/06/2018 02:07 PMPosted by Carmageddon
in another thread you claimed that the scene of Sylvansas sacrificing herself to try to save a mother and child from Arthas was non-canon because it didn't match your thesis that she was always a sociopath
It's her telling the story. It's not objective.
Not only are the cutscenes canon, this particular cutscene and the Saurfang sparing Anduin is directly referenced in "Lost Honour."
No, it isn't. Find the reference.
11/06/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Akiyass
We don't see this at all though

Yes we absolutely do.
https://youtu.be/MJlHr-nPxtI?t=1216
"I demand an honorable death!"
11/06/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Akiyass
We have no reason to think this happened.
We do have every reason to believe this happened. Unarmed Saurfang can kill Anduin. Anduin walks straight up to him unguarded. He even sheathes his sword.
11/06/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Akiyass
You are pulling things out of thin air.
You are wrong.
Yes we absolutely do.https://youtu.be/MJlHr-nPxtI?t=1216"I demand an honorable death!"


This doesn't prove he spared Anduin's life in the courtyard. This proved that the Champions of Azeroth spared Saurfang's life only.

We do have every reason to believe this happened. Unarmed Saurfang can kill Anduin. Anduin walks straight up to him unguarded. He even sheathes his sword.


This doesn't prove he spared Anduin's life in the courtyard.

11/06/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Treng
You are wrong.


no u
11/06/2018 02:07 PMPosted by Carmageddon
People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. The bedrock rule of this forum, that we need to function, has always been that canon is canon, and includes all of Blizzard's official story publications.
What's more -- not that I want to wade any further into this ridiculous argument -- we're already in relatively unanimous agreement that in-game events are the lowest tier of canonicity, because of gameplay considerations and the limitations of player character perspective.
11/06/2018 02:16 PMPosted by Akiyass
This doesn't prove he spared Anduin's life in the courtyard.
This proves that he wants to die.
Attacking and killing Anduin would guarantee his death.
Anduin walked up to him, unguarded, with his weapon sheathed.
He had motive. He had ability.

11/06/2018 02:16 PMPosted by Akiyass
This doesn't prove he spared Anduin's life in the courtyard.
It does when you look at everything I've said.
11/06/2018 02:17 PMPosted by Kazala
11/06/2018 02:07 PMPosted by Carmageddon
People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. The bedrock rule of this forum, that we need to function, has always been that canon is canon, and includes all of Blizzard's official story publications.
What's more -- not that I want to wade any further into this ridiculous argument -- we're already in relatively unanimous agreement that in-game events are the lowest tier of canonicity, because of gameplay considerations and the limitations of player character perspective.


Add to that the unreliable narrator aspects that are being incorporated now as well.
Here we observe the fascinating ritual of "Lohn'goron," the "hero's sojourn" in the orc tongue. The ritual is a curious evolution of "Om'riggor," the rite of adulthood, combined with "Mak'Rogahn," a duel of wills.

An orcish warrior, having lived through countless battles well into middle-age, will venture out into the wilds and seek a hill to die on. The steeper and less defensible the hill, the more honorable, to which the warrior must then challenge all enemies that seek him.

The hill this orcish warrior has chosen to die on will bring great honor to his ancestors as it is, without a doubt, a lost cause.
11/06/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Treng
It does when you look at everything I've said.


At best you are speculating. First thing:

11/06/2018 02:17 PMPosted by Kazala
in-game events are the lowest tier of canonicity


Also, how does this prove that some cinematics are non canon?
11/06/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Saiphas
11/06/2018 02:17 PMPosted by Kazala
... What's more -- not that I want to wade any further into this ridiculous argument -- we're already in relatively unanimous agreement that in-game events are the lowest tier of canonicity, because of gameplay considerations and the limitations of player character perspective.


Add to that the unreliable narrator aspects that are being incorporated now as well.


Uuuuuuuuuuuuuugh.

If i'v learned anything from the last couple days it's to tone down my own emotional investment, the story is too...lets be kind and call it 'malleable'...to take any of the in-game stuff as an objective truth.
11/06/2018 11:33 AMPosted by Darethy
11/06/2018 11:29 AMPosted by Treng
... Does he? Because Saurfang does meet Anduin in the event. He isn't bound. His axe is at his side. Anduin strolls right up to him, unguarded.

Saurfang could've killed him then. He didn't.

And now we know why.

Edit: It also makes more narrative sense. If it's at this moment that he chose to spare Anduin's life, he knows Sylvanas is alone in the throneroom. The Horde has escaped.


Could he have? would Saurfang just beat Anduin in a one on one and if he could, would Anduin internalize it in that way?

What makes the most narrative sense is Anduin is talking about him being knocked aside, a clearly hostile action where Anduin is at his most vulnerable. The only thing we really have to discount this is that the PC isn't involved in that, but that could of happened at multiple points during the battle for Lordaeron.

That's a whole lot of stuff to infer without an official word from Blizzard for several months.

11/06/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Zaluzan


The guy said we on the scenario never saw the fight that happened on the cinematic. Wich we didn't.

And your response that it is there for everyone to see is to put words in his mouth and claim he said the cinematics aren t cannon. And he never said that.

You literaly made this up and started a topic based on this distortion you made.

Again. Childish as hell and it shows lots on insecurity


That's idiotic, the claim is because we never saw that fight happen that it doesn't count. It's incongruous with our version of events, which extends to the tower. Thus either part, or all, of the cinematic has to be non-canon to fit within that framework.

What you are doing is distorting my opinions because I don't agree with your narrative or interpretation of events. Or you simply don't understand what is being discussed, in which case fair enough.


Ok show me EXACTLY where he said with those exact words. That the cutscenes are noncanonical.

Cause i m not seeing.
How do you compare Varok being beaten to a pulp by a small army, to when both him and Anduin are alone in a cell with Varok right in his face? The reference Anduin was referring to was the BFA cinematic and debating it is quite disingenuous.

11/06/2018 04:23 PMPosted by Zaluzan
Ok show me EXACTLY where he said with those exact words. That the cutscenes are noncanonical.

Cause i m not seeing.


Listen, we were at the battle of lordaeron. The cutscene never happens. The Alliance side does get a "For the Alliance moment" but the Horde definitely doesn't get its "For the Horde!"

Sylvanas never breaks a wall tower.

Saurfang is never afield.

Saurfang DOES run into Anduin though. In the courtyard. Before he's locked up in manacles. And Anduin walks up to him, unguarded. Saurfang could've killed him then.

He doesn't, though.

And now we know why.
11/06/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Saiphas
Zaluzan, I have argued, debated, and discussed things with Darethy for a while now. He may have his moments of hyperbole, but he is by and large a poster I respecg if not agree with. I have never really known him to do egregious troll like behavior. You are doing exactly the kinds of things you claim he is. So *Shrug*

@Grandblade it actually is a meaningful discussion to be had. Because it would definitely reframe a lot of other debates.


Moments if hyperbole!? You mean strawman arguments and creating topics to overcompensate because someone suposedly said something he don t like.

And sorry there dude but kissing his you know what won t convince me he s not being awful and imature here
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Could he have? would Saurfang just beat Anduin in a one on one and if he could, would Anduin internalize it in that way?

What makes the most narrative sense is Anduin is talking about him being knocked aside, a clearly hostile action where Anduin is at his most vulnerable. The only thing we really have to discount this is that the PC isn't involved in that, but that could of happened at multiple points during the battle for Lordaeron.

That's a whole lot of stuff to infer without an official word from Blizzard for several months.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

That's idiotic, the claim is because we never saw that fight happen that it doesn't count. It's incongruous with our version of events, which extends to the tower. Thus either part, or all, of the cinematic has to be non-canon to fit within that framework.

What you are doing is distorting my opinions because I don't agree with your narrative or interpretation of events. Or you simply don't understand what is being discussed, in which case fair enough.


Ok show me EXACTLY where he said with those exact words. That the cutscenes are noncanonical.

Cause i m not seeing.
He's half right. I said that the trailer was just a hype trailer. I didn't say, nor imply, that just because we don't see something doesn't make it canon.

The trailer doesn't line up with events as we see them. There's damage to Lordaeron's walls that is strangely missing from client. Wallbreaker's not there. The earth isn't shattered like it was by zekhan. and I just don't see why """P R A G M A T I C""" sylvanas would give up the defense of the castle walls when outnumbered and outgunned. It doesn't seem smart.

Nevermind that her characterization in the trailer is vastly different than anything in BFA.

11/06/2018 04:25 PMPosted by Arazlok
How do you compare Varok being beaten to a pulp by a small army, to when both him and Anduin are alone in a cell with Varok right in his face? The reference Anduin was referring to was the BFA cinematic and debating it is quite disingenuous.
Because he was very clearly trying to kill Anduin in the cinematic and he has no reason to believe Anduin will survive Sylvanas's Blight in the cinematic. None at all. Zero. So there's no reason to believe he hopes Anduin will kill her.
11/06/2018 04:29 PMPosted by Treng
Because he was very clearly trying to kill Anduin in the cinematic and he has no reason to believe Anduin will survive Sylvanas's Blight in the cinematic. None at all. Zero. So there's no reason to believe he hopes Anduin will kill her.


He admits to pulling back punches.... so he clearly was not trying to kill Anduin in that moment. What Blight in the cinematic? The time Blight was used he urges Sylvanas not to use the Blight. Of course we wouldn't know he hoped the Alliance would stop Sylvanas there, this information was told later. We know in Old Solider cinematic, he was already questioning the Horde's honor before the BFL and thus be the BFA cinematic.
11/06/2018 01:52 PMPosted by Drahliana
The cinematics are canon, but many player's interpretations of them are not.

Anduin for instance did not "mass resurrect" his army. Resurrection magic is not part of the lore, it exists in the game only for gameplay reasons. If you look closely while many of his soliders looked as if they were dying... they had not expired yet. The effect he created was more of a wide area "Mass Revive" coupled with "Mass Close Wounds'. And it was selective enough not to revive enemy troops.


Call it what you want - the effect is the same thing. True fact: in lore, resurrection spells don't actually bring characters back from the dead - they revive characters who are gravely wounded and near death. Anduin actually uses the spell on his father in one of the short stories, as Varian is dying from wounds suffered fighting Dragonkin.
11/06/2018 04:55 PMPosted by Arazlok
He admits to pulling back punches..
Where? In Lost Honor?

No, he doesn't. He admits he had a chance to kill Anduin.

Which he did.

In the courtyard.

After he saw Jaina effortlessly disperse the Blight.

After the Horde has left Lordaeron.

After he factually knew that Anduin and his demi goddess wizard sorceresss would find Sylvanas.

Alone.
11/06/2018 04:55 PMPosted by Arazlok
What Blight in the cinematic?
Saurfang is aware of Sylvanas's strategy with the blight bombs in the throneroom. Go watch the Alliance scenario again.
11/06/2018 04:55 PMPosted by Arazlok
The time Blight was used he urges Sylvanas not to use the Blight.
Yet another time, yes.
11/06/2018 04:55 PMPosted by Arazlok
Of course we wouldn't know he hoped the Alliance would stop Sylvanas there, this information was told later.
That's irrelevant. Being able to backtrack and put pieces together isn't.

You say he was pulling punches in the cinematic.
We see that isn't true. Genn literally has to stop him from swinging his axe at the prone, helpless, and helmetless Anduin Wrynn.

Saurfang is suicidal.
Anduin approaches him unarmed.
Saurfang can kill Anduin without a weapon.
He has a weapon.
Attackin and killin Anduin will get him death.
He hopes Anduin will kill Sylvanas.
He chooses not to kill him.
Where? In Lost Honor?

No, he doesn't. He admits he had a chance to kill Anduin.

Which he did.

In the courtyard.

After he saw Jaina effortlessly disperse the Blight.

After the Horde has left Lordaeron.

After he factually knew that Anduin and his demi goddess wizard sorceresss would find Sylvanas.

Alone.

[/quote]

Wrong. Not in the courtyard, but when he struck and hit Anduin. He let Anduin live, Anduin knows he would be dead if Varok actually meant to kill him. while over exaggerating, Zappy Boi even tells us Varok could strike down 10 enemies with a single blow, but one boy survives a very serious strike by Varok?
11/06/2018 05:09 PMPosted by Arazlok
Wrong. Not in the courtyard, but when he struck and hit Anduin.
Neither he nor Anduin mention this moment.
11/06/2018 05:09 PMPosted by Arazlok
Zappy Boi even tells us Varok could strike down 10 enemies with a single blow, but one boy survives a very serious strike by Varok?
This is a meme reference. Yes. I am telling you that. We see very clearly that the only reason Anduin isn't killed is because Genn has physically stopped Saurfang from swinging his axe by grabbing it with both hands and wrestling with him.
11/06/2018 05:09 PMPosted by Arazlok
Where? In Lost Honor?

No, he doesn't. He admits he had a chance to kill Anduin.

Which he did.

In the courtyard.

After he saw Jaina effortlessly disperse the Blight.

After the Horde has left Lordaeron.

After he factually knew that Anduin and his demi goddess wizard sorceresss would find Sylvanas.

Alone.



Wrong. Not in the courtyard, but when he struck and hit Anduin. He let Anduin live, Anduin knows he would be dead if Varok actually meant to kill him. while over exaggerating, Zappy Boi even tells us Varok could strike down 10 enemies with a single blow, but one boy survives a very serious strike by Varok?[/quote]

11/06/2018 05:02 PMPosted by Treng
Saurfang is suicidal.
Anduin approaches him unarmed.
Saurfang can kill Anduin without a weapon.
He has a weapon.
Attackin and killin Anduin will get him death.
He hopes Anduin will kill Sylvanas.
He chooses not to kill him.


He was already beaten at this time. How would he have killed Anduin? He never makes any attempt at him? Why would Anduin make a claim that Varok could've killed him when in the courtyard scene no moment actually takes place unless under pure hypothetical situation.

If he knew the battle plans , he knew Sylvanas never attended to fight in the throne room and was purely a trap that she never attended to be placed in any danger to be begin with.

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