Are the cinematics even canon?

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11/06/2018 05:12 PMPosted by Arazlok
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Wrong. Not in the courtyard, but when he struck and hit Anduin. He let Anduin live, Anduin knows he would be dead if Varok actually meant to kill him. while over exaggerating, Zappy Boi even tells us Varok could strike down 10 enemies with a single blow, but one boy survives a very serious strike by Varok?


11/06/2018 05:02 PMPosted by Treng
Saurfang is suicidal.
Anduin approaches him unarmed.
Saurfang can kill Anduin without a weapon.
He has a weapon.
Attackin and killin Anduin will get him death.
He hopes Anduin will kill Sylvanas.
He chooses not to kill him.


He was already beaten at this time. How would he have killed Anduin? He never makes any attempt at him? Why would Anduin make a claim that Varok could've killed him when in the courtyard scene no moment actually takes place unless under pure hypothetical situation.

If he knew the battle plans , he knew Sylvanas never attended to fight in the throne room and was purely a trap that she never attended to be placed in any danger to be begin with.


You're wasting good logic on someone whose mind is made up.
This is the first time in awhile that I've been more disappointed in the forum than the game.
11/06/2018 04:27 PMPosted by Zaluzan

Moments if hyperbole!? You mean strawman arguments and creating topics to overcompensate because someone suposedly said something he don t like.

And sorry there dude but kissing his you know what won t convince me he s not being awful and imature here


What's a strawman to you? Treng brought up the idea that the cutscene, in part, or in whole was non-canonical because of placement of our characters during the event. This has been reinforced multiple times, it's what we're trying to discuss.

And this NEEDS a thread. I didn't complain when Amadis quoted me for their own thread, it's a conversation that's an example of a disconnect between us. If we cannot agree on what the parameters of discussing lore are, if we are operating on two versions of a story, then reaching a middle ground is impossible.
This doesn't seem to be going anywhere, friends. Does Blizzard really deserve so much speculation for their popcorn lore cinematics?
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The human paladin has a point, this really is a new low.
11/06/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Darethy
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The human paladin has a point, this really is a new low.


I'm glad to meet you too! Hi!
11/06/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Zekedias
11/06/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Darethy
...

The human paladin has a point, this really is a new low.


I'm glad to meet you too! Hi!


Apologies for the rudeness, Forsaken are innately scared of Farmers after Andorhal, considerably more dangerous then those lightweight 7th legion goons.
11/06/2018 05:12 PMPosted by Arazlok
He was already beaten at this time. How would he have killed Anduin? He never makes any attempt at him? Why would Anduin make a claim that Varok could've killed him when in the courtyard scene no moment actually takes place unless under pure hypothetical situation.
Characters are capable of doing whatever a writer needs them to do. They didn't kill Saurfang. Warriors have a talent called Second Wind. The basic premise being, if you let a warrior catch his breath, he bounces back quickly.

They let Saurfang sit there a hwhile.

11/06/2018 05:12 PMPosted by Arazlok
If he knew the battle plans , he knew Sylvanas never attended to fight in the throne room and was purely a trap that she never attended to be placed in any danger to be begin with.
Sure, that's the plan. And it worked. But nothing in life is guaranteed. He says it himself: He hoped Anduin would stop her.

11/06/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Zekedias
11/06/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Darethy
...

The human paladin has a point, this really is a new low.


I'm glad to meet you too! Hi!
I super appreciate your transmog.
Dude, on these forums I've had people tell me Death Knights aren't Knights.

These schmucks will argue anything about anything until they are blue in the face because all that matters to them is their stalwart perception of the lore.
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I'm glad to meet you too! Hi!


Apologies for the rudeness, Forsaken are innately scared of Farmers after Andorhal, considerably more dangerous then those lightweight 7th legion goons.


That's fine, friend. Everyone is scared of something.

11/06/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Zekedias
11/06/2018 05:31 PMPosted by Darethy
...

The human paladin has a point, this really is a new low.


I'm glad to meet you too! Hi!
I super appreciate your transmog.[/quote]

Haha. It's not a transmog. It's just actual cloth RP gear (and leather boots from Draenor!) No T-Mog involved! Edit: Also, thanks! I like the outfit too! Also I can't forums or quote right.
Lets look at a similar example

The War of Thorns

We have the Novella version of the war and the in game version of the war. Does it make more sense for the Novella they released with the collectors edition to be noncanon or does it makes more sense that the in game version is limited by in game assets and fitting the narrative into an MMORPG format? The obvious answer is the more detailed novella version is the more accurate one, yet similar to the cinematic it also doesn't show the PC's actions.

The lack of over all minor details such as corpses, a little damage, and a tower can easily fall into game design oversight. Plus in game corpses and destroyed objects generally despawn to reduce clutter.

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Another thing is how exactly would killing Anduin in the courtyard have won the battle or war? (this is rather important to answer for your narrative to work)

Meanwhile in reference to the cinematic you can see plainly how this could have ended the battle and maybe the war.

With cleaving Anduin dead instead of pulling back into a knock down means no mass rez/heal to turn the battle. Even if the Alliance regroups with Anduin dead, they have suffered a major morale blow, and the battle is now likely in Genn's paws who would be having major death of his son PTSD and either somebody talks him down and the Alliance retreats in failure weakened and with nothing to show for it or Genn lets his rage overtake him and orders a full assault that leaves the Alliance right in the firing range of the Blight.

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This narrative take that it was in the court yard also ignores that Surfang just had the stuffing beat out of him and was in need of healing. Its one thing to say an Orc can overpower an unarmed human who is alone and the orc's more less rested, another to say an injured exhausted orc could do the same.

We also have the issue of why wouldn't Saurfang have warned Anduin about the Blight Trap that made him go off on Slyvanas, during the courtyard if at that point he had put his faith in Anduin stopping her. Mages have limited mana and Jaina had already done some majorly flashy stuff, assuming she would counter all of the traps he knew and didn't know of by herself doesn't make much sense.
I was always under the assumption that the cinematic was the beginning of the siege.

When we, the players, arrive, the Siege is already under way.

I just assumed it goes in this order;
Pre-battle (Old Soldiers cinematic) -- Siege begins and the cinematic happens -- Horde are forced back into the city -- Sylvanas begins evacuation of Undercity, sending Saurfang to do so -- Players of both factions arrive.

I was never confused on this.
11/06/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Darethy
How can the cinematics be canon if our eyes aren't canon?

But seriously, this is where we're at now. If we cannot even agree on WHAT WE SEE being canon or not, how can we agree on anything because at THAT point we're operating in two different realities, not over just one questline, but the entire story itself.


Of course the cinematics are canon. And this is square one stuff and there does need to be the simple agreement that what we see in the media that Blizzard puts out is canon. Some peole can't do that, or refuse to if it means losing a meaningless argument. For them the ignore feature exists. I promise you will not be the first person to ignore Treng, you will not be the last person. It's such a common thing to do that his hyperbole doesn't even register in most threads.

On the topic itself. The only hard rule I know of to resolve arguments of canon is that the Chronicles released years after the relevant events have transpired trump all. It's what they're for, to tell people what the lore is supposed to be outside of in game restrictions and marketing expectations.

For anything else, if you find a contradiction between a novelization, a short story, an in game quest, and a cinematic, there is a rule of thumb that if you can find an explanation that lets them both occur, that's probably the right answer, otherwise the newer source holds sway. In this case we have an explanation that prevents a contradiction. The cinematic happened first, it ended with the Alliance being pushed back and regrouping, then the player scenario starts with the battle already underway and the Alliance renewing their assault.

And I personally err on the side of any interpretation that agrees with in game dialogue. So in the example of Siege of Lordaeron and Anduin's death ending the war. If Anduin said it, and nobody else is disagreeing with it, it's probably true. Blizzard's time to tell a story is limited and so they usually don't waste it lying to players in game. They save that for outside the game.
11/06/2018 10:05 PMPosted by Desanvos
Another thing is how exactly would killing Anduin in the courtyard have won the battle or war? (this is rather important to answer for your narrative to work)

Meanwhile in reference to the cinematic you can see plainly how this could have ended the battle and maybe the war.

With cleaving Anduin dead instead of pulling back into a knock down means no mass rez/heal to turn the battle. Even if the Alliance regroups with Anduin dead, they have suffered a major morale blow, and the battle is now likely in Genn's paws who would be having major death of his son PTSD and either somebody talks him down and the Alliance retreats in failure weakened and with nothing to show for it or Genn lets his rage overtake him and orders a full assault that leaves the Alliance right in the firing range of the Blight.
Alright, this is fair. I don't think it would be anymore likely to end the war than the courtyard, though. Twice-incensed War Dog Malfurion Stormrage, with his wife Tyrande, now have twice the reason to kill the Horde to extinction.

The Dwarves? Well, they just lost forces. They have every reason to be incensed. Gnomes. Etc.

But I can see why Anduin and Saurfang might have thought that.

But I cannot see how Saurfang could have thought Anduin would have survived Sylvanas's trap during the cinematic. Jaina had not arrived. There is no reason to hope Anduin can kill survive the Blight to kill Sylvanas. And, again, we don't see Saurefang spare him in the cinematic. We see him knock Anduin prone, helpless, swordsless, and helmetless. And then we see that Genn is wrestling with Saurfang to stop the next blow.

If they wanted to convey that this was the moment where Saurfang chose mercy, they could've shown Saurfang lift his axe, pause, and attack some other Alliance soldier. Instead, they show that Saurfang had no choice in not killing Anduin. Genn took that choice from him.

And no, not one hit killing Anduin isn't proof that Saurfang stayed his hand. Anduin could not be killed. At all. It was impossible. It wasn't in Blizzard's docket for Anduin to die.

Nevermind that it could just be referencing the battle in the courtyard, which Anduin took part in. Which happens after the Horde is gone. After Sylvanas is alone. After Jaina effortlessly dispells the Blight. Setting up a hope that Anduin could stop Sylvanas.

11/06/2018 10:05 PMPosted by Desanvos
This narrative take that it was in the court yard also ignores that Surfang just had the stuffing beat out of him and was in need of healing.
It does not. Warriors have Second Wind. Swift recovery has always been part and parcel to the class fantasy. Doubly so for Orc warriors who are renowned for pulling last moment blows. It's like Broxigar and Grom have been casually forgotten.
The novellas, cinematics, and in game portrayals of the intro to BFA are all canon, but they all happen across the multiverse, with numerous timelines branching out after Legion.

Timeline A: The cinematic of BfL occurs in a timeline where the Alliance had a spine and seized this period of post-Legion peace to retake Lordaeron, catching the Forsaken off guard.

Timeline B: The Novella timeline, where Saurfang had a much more direct role in planning the invasion of Night Elven lands.

Timeline C: The ingame timeline. Unlike A or B, in timeline C the Alliance made no direct acts of aggresion against the Horde prior to WoT, and Saurfang doesn't plan the invasion to the extent portrayed in the novels. that's all Sylvanas. Legion Ending -> BtS -> War of Thorns in game campaign -> Old Soldier -> In game battle for Lordraeron portrayal, not cinematic -> Lost Honor -> 8.0/8.1.
Given that: the cinematic was clearly written before the expansion story was fully laid out, with a heroic Horde clashing with a vengeful Alliance, back when you could have a faction war based on genuine conflicting interests, as opposed to... well, we all know what we have now.

If the cinematic _is_ canon, then it has to happen, as some have said, before the players arrive. If Saurfang can be rallied by Sylvanas' actions, at all, it has to come before his final disillusionment with her. Before she bombards, then defiles, the Horde defenders (who can be as out-of-position as you like, the defilement was her choice)

Given that: none of the principal characters for this expansion were in actual danger in the cinematic, because plot armor (used neutrally, here- these characters are central to the plot, and thus had to survive the cinematic) the justification for Saurfang knocking Anduin flat instead of taking his head off is likely Doylist- Greymane grappling with him afterwards supports this.

In the Alliance scenario, Saurfang is at very close range with Anduin, and at this point, his morale is broken. Zekhan's words about family are ash under the weight of Sylvanas' betrayal of his ideals, yet again. There is a stretch between the end of the encounter and Saurfang being chained, during which he could have bought his death by killing Anduin, who I'll point out has a real problem with deliberately getting into close quarters with orcs who might kill him, and he doesn't even try.

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and I really do feel that the one that allows both the scenario and the cinematic to be true is probably right. The fact that only people who've played the Alliance scenario know about this instance, and therefore the only ones who would draw this inference, is not really out of place for the overall level of narrative coherence we've seen thus far. The cinematic team is one of the best in the business, but they can only work with what they're given (and I can completely understand why one might assume that the latter cinematic could only be referencing the former)
This thread has made my curious WHY Treng is fighting so hard to believe that Anduin saying "you could have killed me" is referring to when Saurfang was kneeling weaponless surrounded by 50 Alliance, instead of when Saurfang gently bonked him in the face with his axe handle instead of blade.
11/07/2018 08:48 AMPosted by Hahahahahaha
This thread has made my curious WHY Treng is fighting so hard to believe that Anduin saying "you could have killed me" is referring to when Saurfang was kneeling weaponless surrounded by 50 Alliance, instead of when Saurfang gently bonked him with his axe handle instead of blade.


Because Saurfang is clearly supposed to be our hero for this expansion, and we're looking for ways to make that situation believable.

We know that Blizzard cares more about telling their story than about being true to the characters they're using to tell it. We know this because they've told us so. We're trying to find a way to reconcile the two because we care about this world, and don't want to completely give up on it.
11/07/2018 09:00 AMPosted by Kirango
Because Saurfang is clearly supposed to be our hero for this expansion, and we're looking for ways to make that situation believable.


How is it not believable?
11/07/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Akiyass
11/07/2018 09:00 AMPosted by Kirango
Because Saurfang is clearly supposed to be our hero for this expansion, and we're looking for ways to make that situation believable.


How is it not believable?


He has not been depicted as someone we should be proud of. His portrayal is sympathetic, to the more empathetic among us, but it lacks arete. The latest, with his desire for the Alliance to do his dirty work for him, and the (currently being debated) implication that he knowingly endangered Horde soldiers to do so, makes him feel more like Baine than like the Varok we know and love.

The fact that the thing that gets him out of retirement is nothing from the Horde, but rather a pep talk from a human king, makes it feel like he's not really one of our characters, anymore.

I'd love a WoW where the faction lines were fuzzy enough that that exchange could be viable, but "when he's actively our enemy" is not the time for it, and we've had our identity and our pride stamped on enough that it just felt like twisting the knife.

We, as players, have the meta-knowledge that Anduin is Sylvanas' enemy, not ours, but until we are given the agency to act on that knowledge, it is essentially meaningless.

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