There were no "specs" in Vanilla

Classic Discussion
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11/13/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Redheadchild
11/13/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Frostchi
I mean it's really semantics whether you want to say specs existed or not. Personally I would say vanilla did NOT (not in the sense that people seem to consider a "spec" nowadays).

Mages had all 3 schools of magic no matter which way you specced. If you were "talented" into 31 points of Frost and someone Kicked your Frostbolt, you could switch over to Fireball, or Arcane Missiles,etc.

Shadow Priests could come out of shadow form and actually do decent healing.
etc.etc.

Yes people still called people by their spec, but it was much less prevalent than nowadays. Each class had an optimal role and you were assumed to be performing that role.

Druids Shamans Priests Paladins were all optimal at healing.

Mages/Rogues/Warlocks/Hunters were all optimal at DPS since it was all they could do.

Warriors were the best at Tanking+DPS (Master Class? Lol.)

Class Design was not intended to balance Retribution to be competitive with the "pure" DPS Classes for example. How would that be fair when they have access to so much utility/healing?

If you think you're an awesome ret paladin today in WoW, that's great -- but if you actually played a paladin in Vanilla I'm sure your ret dream was only that -- a dream.
I wouldn't say hunter was an optimal dps lol.

The better gear got, the worse hunter dps was, to the point in naxx hunters we're being compared to hybrids in dps and not other pures.


Yeah I know, we still brought hunters to Naxx though. That being said class balance is something that is very delicate, and messing around with classic numbers could completely change the game in ways we don't realize.

People asking for "Ret to be viable" , etc. are basically asking for huge changes to the game that could have dire implications.

The point of my post was to indicate that the overall differences between classes who are "talented" in different schools is rather minimal in most (but not all) cases. Every class receives spells in multiple schools of magic, and is a jack of all trades in their own way. This is contrary to the current nature of the game where each "Spec" has a clearly specified function/role.
I see this "no specs" thing all the time. Maybe "role" would be a better discussion. When it comes up it's always in that context anyways, just now since spec = role people use the term spec interchangeably. There absolutely was restrictions in classic to roles, which is where I think a lot of disappoinment comes from. Someone who loves the feel and lore of a druid may not enjoy healing and may not want to heal in raids, while that will be the expectation put on them at 60.
11/13/2018 09:45 AMPosted by Brockthorn
11/13/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Redheadchild

The better gear got, the worse hunter dps was, to the point in naxx hunters we're being compared to hybrids in dps and not other pures.


So few guilds got into Naxx that it was a non issue for the majority of hunters.
non issue then, but in classic?

A pure dps class falling severely behind other pure dps classes will be an issue.
11/13/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Frostchi
11/13/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Redheadchild
...I wouldn't say hunter was an optimal dps lol.

The better gear got, the worse hunter dps was, to the point in naxx hunters we're being compared to hybrids in dps and not other pures.


Yeah I know, we still brought hunters to Naxx though. That being said class balance is something that is very delicate, and messing around with classic numbers could completely change the game in ways we don't realize.

People asking for "Ret to be viable" , etc. are basically asking for huge changes to the game that could have dire implications.

The point of my post was to indicate that the overall differences between classes who are "talented" in different schools is rather minimal in most (but not all) cases. Every class receives spells in multiple schools of magic, and is a jack of all trades in their own way. This is contrary to the current nature of the game where each "Spec" has a clearly specified function/role.
by no means am I suggesting magor class changes, but some number tuning would be a good idea.

Not even anything major

For example let's say for hunters they change how aspect of the hawk works.

Instead of raw stats it could be changed to increase your agility by 5% and make it a one rank ability (like every other aspect except AotWild)

Well that 5% is now a scalling buff vs a static stat.

The goal is for that number value to stay the same benifit in gear as the current vanilla versions of RaP benifit until raid gear is gathered.

But why +agility instead of +RaP you might ask?

Because of compounding stats.

Agility gives a little bit of crit chance as well, and with all raid spec hunters going for the bonus to ranged critical strikes it gets better with more gear. Because it gives more crits which crit higher due to talents, and add this in with the +% agility from SV talents (which was the better spec with more gear) it allows the hunter to have compounding scaling which could be the only buff they need to scale reasonably into naxx gear.

Hunters mark could also be changed to add scaling instead of raw AP.

As an example change it to increase your RaP on the target based on 50% of your agility, which means at 400 agility it gives 200 RaP, which is a little more than what he base lvl 60 hunters mark gave but requires great gear.

Changing hunters to have better scaling without breaking them isn't hard.
There were 2 different types of specs.. Leveling spec and Raiding Spec. When I was leveling, I spec'd what kept me alive, folks forget that Leveling was not Easy Peasy like it is today.. If you were caught by 3 or sometimes even 2... mobs, you were dead.. As a Paladin, i made sure i could survive a 3/4 encounter if i did it right and all the stars aligned.

for raiding, i healed.. thats all unless it was 20 man then i could go as ret.. got boring.. (flash, flash, flash the tank)..
T

11/08/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Frostchi
All of you who are asking to make Ret Viable, Enh Viable, etc. etc. are failing to comprehend one simple truth.

There were no specs in Vanilla.

There were no Ret Paladins. There were only Paladins.

Paladins had access to all three schools of magic (Prot,Holy,Ret), and have access to each set of abilities.

You could spend talent points to enhance your already existing toolkit, but most of the base functionality was already there.

Many of the hybrids aren't as good at DPS because of their ability to heal as well. It would be game-breaking in PVP Combat, and hard to balance.

If you want an authentic classic experience and you want them to "class balance", you're really not asking for an authentic experience.


There were specs from the start. You can't make a priest and not pick to go Holy or Shadow.
A raid would take a ret paladin over no paladin any day. Salv is clutch. Same goes for Warlock summons, Mage portals/food, Hunter tranq, etc. Classes have reasons to be brought outside of raw dps.

That being said, a Paladin who has illumination & kings will be brought over a deep ret vengeance Paladin any day o' the week.
-- But -- if the Paladin stays true to the light & believes in their might - they can raid however they wish. ( * your experience may vary)
Only Siths deal in absolutes. There were cookie cutter specs and there were flexibility to talent around those cookie cutter builds.

Todays wow lets you freely chop and change your character to suit every situation on a whim.

Vanilla was more rigid in its "make your character YOURS". Be better at PVP or PVE. Raid DPS or farming efficiency. Hybrid DPS/off-tank war 31/5/15 etc.

How you talented was supplemented by your chosen way of playing. I miss that RPGish ness of the game... the extreme min/max eroded that (supplemented by poor design decisions post wrath).

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