Today's Story Thread: RIGHT & WRONG CHOICES

Wyrmrest Accord
11/13/2018 07:21 PMPosted by Topsail
I suppose you could say that's a privilege, but it's an odd one for Alliance players to be envious of.


I wouldn't use the term "envious" myself. More a resigned acknowledgement.

To borrow an old example...City of Heroes' expansion, City of Villains. As the game development went on, Villains honestly got marginalized in terms of story content. Why? Because all Villains effectively were co-opted by the setting's Main Super Villain's organization. They weren't independent, they could never hope to be independent. That may ultimately be why the devs eventually allowed faction hopping through the Vigilante system, because Villains were never not underlings while Superheroes got to be, well, Superheroes.

The same sort of dichotomy exists today in WoW. The Horde get to choose their narrative structure - whether they are a loyalist or an idealist, basically. The Alliance don't get anything like that, despite the fact 8.1 sets up such a conflict between Tyrande and Anduin. But there, we're ordered by Anduin to help Tyrande. There's no agency to our narrative.

It's less "envious" and more "That's a neat feature. Be cool if we got something like that." The Horde get to be individuals. The Alliance gets to be cogs in a NPC's organization.
The Horde gets a branching narrative with choice and consequence so they don't feel railroaded into supporting Saurfang.

The Alliance gets...made fun of at Blizzcon, I guess?
Sylvanas is bad
11/13/2018 07:37 PMPosted by Enekie
11/13/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Topsail

Did I say it wasn't?

You certainly wouldn't find me jumping through hoops to get stabbed in the gut three times only so that I could be given a consolatory bandaid. The choice is a reaction to players not liking being evil, and on top of that, whatever people choose likely won't have any impact on the story anyways. Those lines have already been written. This is a side show.


That's neat and all, but it doesn't remove the central fact that the Horde is receiving access to mechanics that the Alliance is being denied. Regardless of the quality or the magnitude of this choice, Blizzard is making an extra effort to make Horde players happy and not giving the Alliance the same benefit.


Likely because the criticism of the Alliance story has been nowhere near the evisceration of the Horde's, and based on what we know for future patches, nothing is changing anytime soon.

If the Horde and Alliance were houses and the Horde house was on fire, the fire department wouldn't spray the Alliance house so it felt better. It isn't a burning house.

I'm all for parity in storytelling mechanics between the two factions, but this doesn't come across to me as a storytelling mechanic that Blizzard decided to give the Alliance the shaft on. It's a reaction to what has been lobbed their way repeatedly the past several months.

11/13/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Vanndrel
Villains were never not underlings while Superheroes got to be, well, Superheroes.


I mean, this sounds a lot like the Horde and Alliance now, and the option they're instituting is similar in spirit. The Horde playerbase has been forced to stand by evil, and now the option is being presented to stand by something else. The Alliance doesn't have the same conflict- there's never an instance where they feel morally compromised.
If it's true though -- that our choice will "play out" over the course of the story -- then it had to have been planned.

I think story or not, it's still a mechanic. Game or narrative, whatever it may be considered, shouldn't be gated behind a faction. And I know it's not brilliant, and potentially won't be meaningful, but I think it would feel a bit crap if I mained/solely played alliance.

I'm fairly even in how I'm approaching both factions this time around (hell, I practically have the same character on each side) so for me it's just a relief, my 2nd Alliance character isn't 120 yet :0
Ideally?

Sylvanas takes all of the Horde's Azerite and flees with Gallywix, denying the Horde the resource it needs to win the war, and also abandons her loyalist troops (PCs) to take her 'true' followers (NPCs). Saurfang is slain in the process and the 'revolution' loses it's figurehead right when they need their leader the most and the revolutionaries are left in control of Kalimdor with even less forces, resources and coherent leadership than before.

Anduin manages to stop the war, but Tyrande manages to find a bedfellow in the form of Rogers (where the heck is she btw?) and Anduin goes missing ala his father. The Alliance mourns this latest 'betrayal' from the Horde and rallies to launch a final counter-offensive ... only for Tyrande and Rogers to hit a snag: Each other. Rogers wants to completely dominate the Eastern Kingdoms first, and that means wiping out the Sin'dorei that sided with the Horde. Tyrande wants her homeland back, and that means nuking Orgrimmar and Thunder Bluff. Tension arise along both political and racial lines and the Alliance ironically starts to tear itself apart and starts to lose their ability to actually win the war because they can't focus enough troops on a single battlefield to actually permanently claim territory.

Ideally, the Horde splits into two sub-factions, the former Sylvanas Loyalists struggling to prove they still deserve to belong to the Horde if only to maintain the safety of their people all the while trying to understand why, despite all their loyalty in the face of everything, their Banshee Queen betrayed them, while the former Saurfang Loyalists desperately trying to rebuild the Horde under the weight of so many atrocities and the unending bloodlust from the Alliance meaning there will be no peace-accords, no trade agreements and their people are now more reviled across the globe than ever before. The ideological divide remains, quite visibly, but there's also a very oppressive atmosphere of 'we need each other or the Alliance will kill us all' attitude over both camps that makes the two camps work together at best, or at worst not work directly against each other.

The Alliance fragments into two skirmishing camps, with Rogers crowning herself the Red Lion and insisting the Alliance dominate the Eastern Kingdoms first, through any means necessary, while Tyrande insists that the Alliance fulfill their duties to her people and claim Kalimdor while the Horde is divided and weak and take the natural resources of the continent to rebuild their armies and nations. Tyrande is accused of caring only for her own people's needs and forgetting how often Stormwind's soldiers have died fighting for their allies, while Rogers is in turn left fighting accusations that she's just 'more of the same', Human-first politicking from Stormwind that cares only for her own homeland.

Many of Tyrande's own people, as well as disgruntled non-humans and a surprising number of Stormwindians who have lost faith in the Light stand under Tyrande's banner, while a large number of the Alliance's military chooses to rally around Rogers, including a number of Night Elves, Worgen and Draenei who acknowledge that war is won through tactics and strategy, not blind rage and zealotry, and the Alliance groans as it's two most vocal leaders tear it apart straight down the middle, with Stormwind actively dividing along the districts into petty camps.

<CONT>
<CONT>

As all of this is happening, Jaina, Maiev and Wrathion form a volatile and unstable partnership to track down Sylvanas because nobody else seems to be focusing on the real threat, what the Banshee Queen is going to do with that much processed Azerite, aided by, of all people, Odyn who wants to know what the wretch who nearly absconded with his favourite Val'kyr is up to.

Maiev wants to imprison Sylvanas permanently and torture the Horde's secrets out of the Warchief, Jaina wants to just straight up murder her and be done with it, Wrathion wants the Azerite back 'for reasons' and Odyn secretly wants to claim Sylvanas and turn her into one of his Val'kyr as much to tweak Helya's nose as to lay claim to such a cunning and devastating general for his Stormforged Armies.

In the meantime Talanji, Rhokhan, Rexxar and Chen Stormstout chase rumors of a Alliance squad hiding deep in Dustwallow Marsh and start to find clues that history is repeating itself, that Anduin has been kidnapped and ensorcelled by Rogers in much the same way that Wrynn was once split into two by Onyxia.

On the one hand, recovering Anduin and returning him to the Alliance could end the majority of the Alliance's aggression against the Horde, at least for now, and leave the Night Elves carrying on their revenge attacks but now with no support, replacement troops or infrastructure, something the surviving Horde forces could well endure without too much trouble, but on the other hand, the Alliance is currently tearing itself to pieces without him and if they leave it long enough, it's entirely possible the Alliance's current political strife will result in a devastating civil war and the Horde could wipe out the Alliance's military entirely and lay claim to both Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms.

It leaves Sylvanas as this bogeyman off in the distance to come back and Arthas us someday, the Horde finally gets back to being the under-dogs of the setting again without hand-waving away all that's been done under their banner, the Alliance finally gets some morally grey antics to chew on as well as giving it some much needed tension as the differences between the varying cultures and religious beliefs being brought forward and shoved in the players' faces and there's a deep undercurrent of uncertainty to everything that makes every win and gain the player makes feels like an actual victory, that you've actually gained something for your faction and there's families that will be fed, kept warm and safe all because of what you did today.

Likely because the criticism of the Alliance story has been nowhere near the evisceration of the Horde's, and based on what we know for future patches, nothing is changing anytime soon.

If the Horde and Alliance were houses and the Horde house was on fire, the fire department wouldn't spray the Alliance house so it felt better. It isn't a burning house.

I'm all for parity in storytelling mechanics between the two factions, but this doesn't come across to me as a storytelling mechanic that Blizzard decided to give the Alliance the shaft on. It's a reaction to what has been lobbed their way repeatedly the past several months.


This is dishonest.

For one, they aren't houses. They're factions in a video game. If Blizzard isn't willing to give both of them equal care and attention, then the one with the extra privileges should have to give them up.

For two, your example contradicts itself. Both factions complain, but the Horde get a swift response that branches into more content and the Alliance get made fun of Blizzcon. The fact that the response to the Horde is so swift and thorough is further indicative of the extra privileges the Horde enjoys.

Three, you're ignoring the long history of neglect shown by Blizzard toward the Alliance. It's on record as being something they regret, to the point that they were forced to apologize it, but they're doing it again, full throttle.

And finally, you're ignoring historical precedent of Blizzard paying more attention to the Horde and giving them greater story control. That can't be ignored when you're talking about future content, since it indicates that the Horde will likely continue to receive much more attention than the Alliance.

I get what you're getting at, but you need to be honest.


I mean, this sounds a lot like the Horde and Alliance now, and the option they're instituting is similar in spirit. The Horde playerbase has been forced to stand by evil, and now the option is being presented to stand by something else. The Alliance doesn't have the same conflict- there's never an instance where they feel morally compromised.


And in exchange, the Horde get more control of the story, an active role in the story, more attention, more care, more concern about their happiness and more privileges. You play the bad guy, you get to do more stuff.

If they want to have this moral choice, they should be forced to give up something, as well.
I don't feel like demanding the Horde make a sacrifice for their narrative freedom is in any way needed. The Horde already have to endure being the undisputed villains for the third expansion in WoW's history and they've blown through four Warchiefs while we're technically still on our first High King (Since Anduin ruled initially when Varian was missing in action).

The Horde's been forced to give up enough, in that respect. All I'd like to see is the Alliance get the same sort of story focus. At this point, we've got no reason to be as homogenized as we are since the Alliance is presently 75% refugee population.

There are some seriously interesting places the Alliance story can go, but we're still shackled to the pauper kingdom of Stormwind.
@Gentarn: Never realized I wanted the Rogers/Tyrande pairing this much until now. The Red Lion of Lordaeron has my backing any day.

EDIT: Also took me until now to realize that Rogers may have been living feet away from Calia and her husband at some point, depending on how the timeline of events surrounding Southshore works out.
11/13/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Mellee
@Gentarn: Never realized I wanted the Rogers/Tyrande pairing this much until now. The Red Lion of Lordaeron has my backing any day.

EDIT: Also took me until now to realize that Rogers may have been living feet away from Calia and her husband at some point, depending on how the timeline of events surrounding Southshore works out.


I was wondering how many people may have picked up on that?

Imagine Rogers fury when she learns Anduin raised Calia as an Undead, even if it was at the behest of a Naaru?

I am seriously hoping that Blizzard is holding Rogers back to throw at us as a justifiable foil to Anduin's antics. A sort of 'we don't want her to win but god damn if she doesn't have a good reason' enemy that really twists the knife for players who choose to side against her and can give the 'morally grey' folks somebody they can rally behind without immediately getting slapped with an -ism tag by other players.
11/13/2018 10:45 PMPosted by Gentarn
11/13/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Mellee
@Gentarn: Never realized I wanted the Rogers/Tyrande pairing this much until now. The Red Lion of Lordaeron has my backing any day.

EDIT: Also took me until now to realize that Rogers may have been living feet away from Calia and her husband at some point, depending on how the timeline of events surrounding Southshore works out.


I was wondering how many people may have picked up on that?

Imagine Rogers fury when she learns Anduin raised Calia as an Undead, even if it was at the behest of a Naaru?

I am seriously hoping that Blizzard is holding Rogers back to throw at us as a justifiable foil to Anduin's antics. A sort of 'we don't want her to win but god damn if she doesn't have a good reason' enemy that really twists the knife for players who choose to side against her and can give the 'morally grey' folks somebody they can rally behind without immediately getting slapped with an -ism tag by other players.
Yeah, since day one of this expansion she's been (at least a part of) the cure Blizzard needs for the whole Morally Grey/Horde Morale problem. She does something that's a trademark Rogers shade of grey/black, Alliance feel good for not having to 'hold back' like usual and the Horde has a foe both the pragmatic and honor crowds can feel good fighting. It's right there Blizz, right in front of you!
11/13/2018 09:25 PMPosted by Vanndrel
I don't feel like demanding the Horde make a sacrifice for their narrative freedom is in any way needed. The Horde already have to endure being the undisputed villains for the third expansion in WoW's history and they've blown through four Warchiefs while we're technically still on our first High King (Since Anduin ruled initially when Varian was missing in action).


I agree, but I'm quickly losing my patience for it. The Horde does have to endure being villains, it's true. But by that token, the Alliance has to endure being their victim, time and time again.

And now the Horde is getting an option to be less villainous, yet the Alliance isn't getting an option to be less victimized.

While I agree that the Alliance should be given more, that doesn't seem likely to happen. So if getting better treatment isn't an option, how else do we bring the factions to parity?
11/13/2018 11:12 PMPosted by Enekie
I agree, but I'm quickly losing my patience for it.


Yet you were the one who said "they should be forced to give up something" in exchange for the ability to choose between Sylvanas and Saurfang. I am confused.

The Horde does have to endure being villains, it's true. But by that token, the Alliance has to endure being their victim, time and time again.


Indeed, and I'm not going to deny that every time Blue side gets victimized, we lose more territory. BfA at least course corrects in the sense it's a equal trade - Teldrassil's lost in exchange for the Undercity. But of course, the way they go about that trade still has the Alliance come out as the weaker faction.

That's also ignoring the fact that while the Alliance secured Trisfal Glades, the Horde got to sack multiple Alliance settlements in Ashenvale and Darkshore.

Believe me, I get the imbalance there.

And now the Horde is getting an option to be less villainous, yet the Alliance isn't getting an option to be less victimized.

While I agree that the Alliance should be given more, that doesn't seem likely to happen. So if getting better treatment isn't an option, how else do we bring the factions to parity?


Speaking for myself, I think the Alliance is ultimately always going to be victimized as long as our story is tethered to Stormwind and Anduin. Don't misunderstand me, I like Anduin's character. I like the growth he's had in the game. I admire his desire for peace between the factions.

But the glaring truth is he's about as interesting, and relevant, as Pre-Theramore Jaina.

As I said before, the Alliance is now 75% refugee population all tallied. There's a lot of places the narrative could go to explore this. Kul'Tiras discovering itself coming into the Alliance as one of, if not the, most powerful individual member state. The Council of Three Hammers and the Dwarves contending with the fact Magni is back and disinterested in his old job despite the fact the Council was formed specifically because of his own absence. The Night Elves and the rekindling of their savage aspects. Gnomes actually finally retaking their dang city (Nobody has ever liked that dungeon anyway). The Worgen dealing with a second displacement. The Draenei reintegrating with their Lightforged brethren while also being the sole Alliance port on an entire continent.

If you want to have a narrative that gives equal footing to both factions, you have to start writing the Alliance like the Horde is written. Racial identity was never a big part of the Alliance (Indeed, the Nightborne recruitment mission even calls this out as a major factor in the Nightborne joining the Horde). The Highborne of Dire Maul were brought into the fold with nary a ripple. Heck, Void Elves have been embraced with open arms despite the fact we very clearly are the anathema of the Light.

You don't get that with Purge Squads or board room squabbles that ultimately end in a single, central NPC telling us player characters what to do.

You get that by allowing the Alliance races to have their own stories to tell and find their own fit within the greater whole.
The goal was to create enough plausible deniability in the actions Sylvanas has committed where she can still have a fanbase.


Out of the information of the past few weeks, this was the only line I've latched onto and it's the line that broke whatever pretense of goodwill I had for the writing team.

They didn't really achieve this at all. The entire expansion is predicated on basically disappointing one or more groups of WoW fans. None of the rest of the narrative even supports that this was an idea.

They aren't done with Sylvanas, so they're continuing to bend the plot for her. Or trying to obscure the plot enough that she's still... Something. Or trying to excuse their malleable plot armor with weird meta marketing context?

They certainly didn't make any intentional effort with Garrosh. In fact the most notable incident was revealed to be entirely accidental. Now they're trying to do the opposite but effectively failing? And why? People had little problem rallying behind her regardless of the utter lack of moral ambiguity.

This whole branching narrative idea and the possibility that I could pick the "wrong" side or the "wrong choice"... I'm not worried about good or evil at this point, I only care about what possible context makes the choice "wrong". Because all of the above has removed my capacity for beneift of the doubt regarding their perspective about moral and right or wrong.
11/13/2018 08:00 PMPosted by Ursuola
The Horde gets a branching narrative with choice and consequence so they don't feel railroaded into supporting Saurfang.

The Alliance gets...made fun of at Blizzcon, I guess?


WARNING: OPINION RANT

The more I think about this the more I've kind of checked out on the idea of faction pride. Every speech and comment and Q&A and post event interviews inevitably skews towards Horde. How does the Horde feel. How is the Horde going to get through this. How is the Horde going to deal with this. How great is Sylvanas. How can a Horde character ever be jealous of an Alliance character. How much opportunity the Goblins will have for new inventions and lore stolen from the mechagnome island instead of how cool a lore point this could be for gnomes. The only time Alliance got deliberately answered was usually to say "We know there's a faction imbalance. We're keeping an eye on it."

I'm double faction but I get it, you don't care about me playing your game. That's fine. As the reports of Alliance guilds having more and more "Eh I guess I'll be back for 8.1" attrition turns into "Maybe I'll resub for 8.3" and the people not interested in faction switching just stop playing instead I hope beyond hope there's a moment of self reflection where they go "Oh. Maybe this was us. Maybe people find this less funny than we do."

We get it, the core staff wants to be badass heroic orc rock stars and not aging computer nerds slowly coming to terms with mounting medical problems and retirement. I'm getting older too, and a game where I'm no longer feeling all that welcome because I might like blue more than red during certain periods doesn't rank very high on my priorities.

END OPINION RANT.
11/14/2018 01:11 AMPosted by Vanndrel

Yet you were the one who said "they should be forced to give up something" in exchange for the ability to choose between Sylvanas and Saurfang. I am confused.


Because, ideally, the Alliance would get more focus in order to balance the factions out. Since Blizzard doesn't want to do that, why shouldn't the Horde give up some content to bring the factions back down to parity?

Because that's how bad the favoritism has gotten. The Horde aren't just getting more story, they're getting actual content that the Alliance is being denied. When one side has too much and one side has too little, what's the obvious solution?


You get that by allowing the Alliance races to have their own stories to tell and find their own fit within the greater whole.


And when they're unwilling to do that?
11/14/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Enekie
Because, ideally, the Alliance would get more focus in order to balance the factions out. Since Blizzard doesn't want to do that, why shouldn't the Horde give up some content to bring the factions back down to parity?


Sorry, I disagree there. Like I said, they've been the villains for three expansions and gone through a larger batch of their major NPC contigent (Heck, one of the major characters of WarCraft III got fridged "off screen" in secondary media).

End of the day, WoW is a video game and I'm not comfortable with forcing one side to "give up" content so the other side can have something to do. I'd rather just see equal attention and consideration being given to both sides.

11/14/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Enekie
The Horde aren't just getting more story, they're getting actual content that the Alliance is being denied.


Are they, though? Sure, they get to pick a side, but that's not really affecting the overall narrative they get. Indeed, as I understood it by refusing to play ball with Saurfang, you effectively skip a portion of content and miss out on a few rewards.

Biggest problem content-wise with BfA that I see is a lot of end game content both now and in 8.1 happens on Zandalar and the Alliance's War Campaign did a poor job establishing that continent for us. There's zero investment to the actions being taken. It's not a denial of content, it's simply a lack of focus on the content that is available. While the Horde were learning about a God of Corruption, the Alliance was busy dealing with a traitor who wanted to join with the Blood Trolls.

It's not bad content, but it's content with little overlap. Much the same way Horde running Deadmines or Gnomregan in Vanilla was. An overwhelming sense of "Why are we even here?"

11/14/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Enekie
When one side has too much and one side has too little, what's the obvious solution?


Again, do we have too little, though? Kul'Tiras was a blast, start to finish but it was three independent plotlines that didn't overlap at all with the War Campaign or the initial Raid and has little to do with 8.1. Our content is there, just not focused. We got Call of Cthulu, The Witcher, and Game of Thrones, but no WarCraft. No introduction to the Titan Facility. No idea of what's going on in Zandalar.

Now in 8.1, you've got the Horde Civil War 2.0 while we get the Tyrande at Darkshore stuff. Again, it's not a case of the Horde getting something and we get nothing, it's just the fact that our stories aren't intersecting at all. Which loops back to my statements about the Alliance being too shackled to Stormwind and Anduin's story. Anduin setting Saurfang free is the "connecting thread" between the two narratives, but while that's happening in Stormwind the Alliance Players are taken to Kalimdor to watch Tyrande pull an Illidan and deal with the Forsaken raising Night Elves.

The Horde is being given agency (in a Mass Effect choose the color of the beam ending sort of way) in its narrative. The Alliance remains without that illusion, and we remain a largely agency-less narrative.

11/14/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Enekie
And when they're unwilling to do that?


What I'm presently doing - not play the game. In the end, the only ways I can make Blizzard aware of my dissatisfaction beyond discussion is with my wallet and my log in. I can't help the fact I snagged two months of game time right before all interest I had collapsed, but I can choose not to even "have a go of it" and log in for a few minutes before wandering back to Crusader Kings II, Skyrim, or Total War.

One less Alliance log in might not matter to Blizzard, but statistics are something they inevitably pay attention to. It's what got the Horde the Blood Elves, after all. So if enough Alliance players just choose not to participate along with subs going down with plenty of documentation on their official feedback forums about how unsatisfactory the narrative balance is...then if they choose not to respond to that it's not through my own lack of trying.

But again, I don't feel the desire for a better Alliance experience means that fundamentally the Horde's experience has to suffer. First of all because I don't believe the Alliance experience is fundamentally unbalanced or worse (It's certainly not Robot Cat days), but also because I don't feel that the solution to the problem if the Alliance storyline were somehow worse off is to drag the Horde down to the same level. Much better, I feel, simply to elevate the Alliance experience to that of the Horde.
11/14/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Opherial
11/13/2018 08:00 PMPosted by Ursuola
The Horde gets a branching narrative with choice and consequence so they don't feel railroaded into supporting Saurfang.

The Alliance gets...made fun of at Blizzcon, I guess?


WARNING: OPINION RANT

The more I think about this the more I've kind of checked out on the idea of faction pride. Every speech and comment and Q&A and post event interviews inevitably skews towards Horde. How does the Horde feel. How is the Horde going to get through this. How is the Horde going to deal with this. How great is Sylvanas. How can a Horde character ever be jealous of an Alliance character. How much opportunity the Goblins will have for new inventions and lore stolen from the mechagnome island instead of how cool a lore point this could be for gnomes. The only time Alliance got deliberately answered was usually to say "We know there's a faction imbalance. We're keeping an eye on it."

I'm double faction but I get it, you don't care about me playing your game. That's fine. As the reports of Alliance guilds having more and more "Eh I guess I'll be back for 8.1" attrition turns into "Maybe I'll resub for 8.3" and the people not interested in faction switching just stop playing instead I hope beyond hope there's a moment of self reflection where they go "Oh. Maybe this was us. Maybe people find this less funny than we do."

We get it, the core staff wants to be badass heroic orc rock stars and not aging computer nerds slowly coming to terms with mounting medical problems and retirement. I'm getting older too, and a game where I'm no longer feeling all that welcome because I might like blue more than red during certain periods doesn't rank very high on my priorities.

END OPINION RANT.


This is pretty much where I'm at as well.

My sub runs out in 9 days and when I first canceled I figured "yeah I'm sure I'll resub for 8.1". Unfortunately the more I look at BlizzCon, the more I look at the story the more I find myself saying "Nah, why bother? The story isnt improving on either side and Blizzard seems to be making it increasingly clear they simply dont understand their audience anymore"
11/14/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Taalva
Blizzard seems to be making it increasingly clear they simply dont understand their audience anymore


The problem there is Blizzard has become their own audience. I don't think there's a developer or writer for WoW that isn't playing themselves. Thus they're doing what they want to make a game they want to play...and nuts to anyone else.

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