Blizzard you FAILED. Worst Class Design in the Game's History. Part II

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I missed the original thread unfortunately. I however completely agree with the OP.

I'm still playing, I'm still overall having fun though not as much fun as in the past. After getting HM Tauren I am leveling up an alt and, let's just say, it's not one of the funner iterations of WoW I've experienced. In fact, it's a bit of a slog, even in comparison to the patch in Legion that slowed down xp and added the level scaling.

What is wrong? As the OP states, it's the blandness of the classes post-pruning and the overall class design philosophy but it's not just those things.

It's also feeling like you're chucking wet noodles at the mobs that are suddenly far tougher than they have been for a long time (tougher in the sense of HP). It was too fast in early Legion, now it's too slow and it's not just a question of slow xp rate gains, it's just the pace in general. This is not just because of the GCD but also the stat squish.

It feels slow in all content. It doesn't get better as one levels. It's just so very meh.
[quote]<span class="truncated">...</span>

Disagree. Changing the specs up every so often keeps things fresh, If everything just stayed the same +/- a generic spell every expansion, it'd get stale. For every person who quits over "too much change" there's another who would have quit because they got bored of no change.

That, and overhauls like Outlaw and Survival were necessary for the sake of actually having varied spec choices. Rogues and Hunters had specs that were entirely too similar to one another, and now they have truly unique options.

.


Major Disagree here (first post in about 4 or 5 years I disagree so much)
I quit the game because of the SV change, I dislike and still dislike MM but loved ranged SV (it's bs that they were too similar, and I lost many of friends that played due to their class\spec no longer being the one they enjoyed playing #1 reason for them quitting), keeping it fresh is changing the story , quests, world etc, the "hero" should always somewhat resemble themselves and grow from that.

*hell only reason I resubbed right now is a friend is moving a few states away and we're trying to find a game we both like to meet up on and play and as someone that started playing wow about a month after it went live, I hate what they've done to it, the scaling is awefull the classes are well crap to be honest , during MOP I leveled up every class and almost every spec it was so fun playing them, I kinda hope he settles on another game to play so I can unsub again.
10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
After 869 Upvotes, the last thread hit post limit.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768907172?page=1

I wanted to bring this thread back now that Blizzard is apparently handing out surveys to see what exactly they did wrong.

Previous post:
[quote]I had problems with certain elements of MoP Class design, namely the new talent trees. But all of my gripes back then are just completely trivial in light of what's come since.

Can this company just realize that they dropped the ball in WoD and classes really haven't been fun since then?

5.4 Class Design should be used as a starting point for abilities/talents going forward.

I'm sick of having niche spells taken away, I'm sick of having baseline utility scrapped and handed back as a talent, I'm tired of my class being reinvented to be completely unrecognizable from what it was when I rolled the character.

Just go back. Don't try to "improve" this mess, don't "iterate" on it. You've been trying that since 6.0, and it's still complete garbage.


To expand upon the above:
1.) Removing baseline, niche abilities (Stances, etc.) and handing them back as talents is bad.
2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad
3.) Discouraging things like AMS soaking and Berserker Stance (Termed by Ion as "degenerate playstyles") is bad.
4.) Redesigning classes so that they're mechanically unrecognizable is bad.
5.) Removing gameplay options like 2h Frost is bad and hasn't improved balance
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious.

All of that is a given, but there's a bigger problem rooted in Artifacts and Azerite:
Farming to unlock my class' full potential is awful.

I don't want my class to be a barebones hollow shell of its former self, just so you can put me on a treadmill to grind out abilities or passives that I should have baseline at max level.

It's simply not fun, it's not interesting, and the game is worse off for it.

The best case scenario is that you strike a very difficult balance and manage to patch over SOME of the gaps in my class without making certain traits mandatory. You've yet to strike that balance, and you really should stop trying.

Azerite traits specifically constitute a failure at a foundational level. I know people have hopped off the "Azerite Gear" train since you've added vendors and put in SUPER INTERESTING TRAITS (More on that later), but it's inherently linked to modern class design, and thus deserves scorn.

The traits themselves are stuck in an odd position where they NEED to make classes more interesting, but are limited in how interesting they can actually be. There's a hard ceiling on what Azerite traits can do, simply because they're limited to a single slot, and Blizzard doesn't want any specific trait to feel mandatory.

You're trying to strike a balance between two things that are actually mutually exclusive.

Beyond that, has anyone taken a look at the datamined 8.1 Azerite traits? They're extremely boring. Take the Unholy one, for example: You have to pay attention to position when popping Dark Transformation to get AoE damage.

Real interesting, right? Paying attention to positioning when popping a cooldown is going to make up for the lackluster mess the spec has been for a while.

tl;dr: Azerite Gear/Artifact Traits and Pruning are a mistake. They haven't made the game better, they've made the game worse. Classes are not more enjoyable, or more balanced now. They're less enjoyable and balance is a joke (Ask shamans!)

Just. Go. Back. Stop it with this. You've been trying "pruning" since WoD, where class design was bad. You've been trying auxiliary systems that complete classes since Legion, where class design was bad. I don't want to grind to play my character, I'll happily grind rep, or attunements, but I don't want to grind so my class isn't completely uninteresting (Spoiler alert: Even after grinding, it's still not fun to play)

Part II Good Takes Hall of Fame:
10/27/2018 04:58 PMPosted by Suhuy
I miss feeling like the class first and the spec second. In Legion they did pruning in the name of class fantasy, but many classes had shared spells that were made spec specific. This feels bad. I miss flame shock as enhance, poisons for sub and combat. Specializing shouldn't mean you lose some of the base tools of your class.


"Working as intended"

They had planned all along to lose half their customers in 2 months time.
11/01/2018 05:28 AMPosted by Rëçiproçity
10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
After 869 Upvotes, the last thread hit post limit.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768907172?page=1

I wanted to bring this thread back now that Blizzard is apparently handing out surveys to see what exactly they did wrong.

Previous post:
[quote]I had problems with certain elements of MoP Class design, namely the new talent trees. But all of my gripes back then are just completely trivial in light of what's come since.

Can this company just realize that they dropped the ball in WoD and classes really haven't been fun since then?

5.4 Class Design should be used as a starting point for abilities/talents going forward.

I'm sick of having niche spells taken away, I'm sick of having baseline utility scrapped and handed back as a talent, I'm tired of my class being reinvented to be completely unrecognizable from what it was when I rolled the character.

Just go back. Don't try to "improve" this mess, don't "iterate" on it. You've been trying that since 6.0, and it's still complete garbage.


To expand upon the above:
1.) Removing baseline, niche abilities (Stances, etc.) and handing them back as talents is bad.
2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad
3.) Discouraging things like AMS soaking and Berserker Stance (Termed by Ion as "degenerate playstyles") is bad.
4.) Redesigning classes so that they're mechanically unrecognizable is bad.
5.) Removing gameplay options like 2h Frost is bad and hasn't improved balance
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious.

All of that is a given, but there's a bigger problem rooted in Artifacts and Azerite:
Farming to unlock my class' full potential is awful.

I don't want my class to be a barebones hollow shell of its former self, just so you can put me on a treadmill to grind out abilities or passives that I should have baseline at max level.

It's simply not fun, it's not interesting, and the game is worse off for it.

The best case scenario is that you strike a very difficult balance and manage to patch over SOME of the gaps in my class without making certain traits mandatory. You've yet to strike that balance, and you really should stop trying.

Azerite traits specifically constitute a failure at a foundational level. I know people have hopped off the "Azerite Gear" train since you've added vendors and put in SUPER INTERESTING TRAITS (More on that later), but it's inherently linked to modern class design, and thus deserves scorn.

The traits themselves are stuck in an odd position where they NEED to make classes more interesting, but are limited in how interesting they can actually be. There's a hard ceiling on what Azerite traits can do, simply because they're limited to a single slot, and Blizzard doesn't want any specific trait to feel mandatory.

You're trying to strike a balance between two things that are actually mutually exclusive.

Beyond that, has anyone taken a look at the datamined 8.1 Azerite traits? They're extremely boring. Take the Unholy one, for example: You have to pay attention to position when popping Dark Transformation to get AoE damage.

Real interesting, right? Paying attention to positioning when popping a cooldown is going to make up for the lackluster mess the spec has been for a while.

tl;dr: Azerite Gear/Artifact Traits and Pruning are a mistake. They haven't made the game better, they've made the game worse. Classes are not more enjoyable, or more balanced now. They're less enjoyable and balance is a joke (Ask shamans!)

Just. Go. Back. Stop it with this. You've been trying "pruning" since WoD, where class design was bad. You've been trying auxiliary systems that complete classes since Legion, where class design was bad. I don't want to grind to play my character, I'll happily grind rep, or attunements, but I don't want to grind so my class isn't completely uninteresting (Spoiler alert: Even after grinding, it's still not fun to play)

Part II Good Takes Hall of Fame:
10/27/2018 04:58 PMPosted by Suhuy
I miss feeling like the class first and the spec second. In Legion they did pruning in the name of class fantasy, but many classes had shared spells that were made spec specific. This feels bad. I miss flame shock as enhance, poisons for sub and combat. Specializing shouldn't mean you lose some of the base tools of your class.


"Working as intended"

They had planned all along to lose half their customers in 2 months time.


2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad

Years and years ago could have swore someone (maybe during BC or Wrath) asked about PVP type talents and the response from a Dev was they didn't think the toon should play differently (would seem odd to magically have some extra powers when fighting other players in BG or something like that) and would make it harder to learn or master if the toon played differently in PVE vs PVP.

*more and more it seems the old Dev's had their heads on straighter than the new ones.
10/27/2018 01:40 PMPosted by Yura
ty blizz for deleting my main spec i played since wrath.


I'll never forgive blizz for that, I hope whomever idea it was has a future cleaning porta jon's at Chili cookoff's...
10/31/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Omegon
Let me say this again.

MOP sucked. Just because that’s when you were 13 and started playing the game does not make it good. Stop propping up MOP anything besides challenge mode dungeons. Class designs was bloated and utterly boring with incredibly tedious abilities added such as rune of power.

This feels like an echo chamber of people who have no unique ideas but want to hop on a bandwagon because of few loud mouths told them so. Game isn’t great but MOP was worse.


I started in Vanilla (in the first couple of weeks of launch) and I did find the MOP designs more fun and engaging than what we have now. Yes there were stupid talents added in MOP like RoP (you will note that will all the pruning they have done since then that POS talent is STILL in the game...I think that someone at Blizz just loves poking mages in the eye...I wonder if it was a PVP focused dev that got owned by a frost mage and has his feelings hurt...). But in general there were more things to do, rotations were a little more involved, and you had more options in your tool chest to do what you wanted to do.

They pruned more in WOD and then more in Legion BUT at least in Legion they gave back a lot of what they took away via the artifact weapon system which had some useful and interesting traits that could have a real impact on game play. The very weak sauce and uninteresting Azerite traits and HOA neck item are really poor replacements for that. An issue that is exacerbated by also eliminating the often interesting and useful tier gear buffs.

The end result is that we are now left with our limited and VERY pruned ability list and no interesting way to Spackle in the gaps like with the artifact weapons or tier gear. The only thing that makes sense to me is that Blizz wants to launch a version of WOW for platforms like x-box and PS. So they need a game that can be played with 4-6 buttons and that is what they have. In all honesty I would not be at all surprised if that was announced at Blzzcon this week and maybe a FTP business model with micro-transactions (here comes pay-to-win).

In some ways this kind of reminds me of the flying debacle. Blizz decided that they did not like flying so they took it out. But a lot of people liked it. There were also a number that advocated for no flying but that seemed a strange argument to make. If you want to fly in game then fly, if not then don't. This is similar to me. If you want to have a set of just 3 or 4 skills that you use then fine. That should be enough to get your through dungeons, LFR, and maybe normal. But if you want more complexity and want to squeeze that extra few points of DPS or HPS out of your toon then they should allow the people that want to have that level of complexity to have it to help move them along in Heroic, Mythic, and high M+ dungeons. Seems to me that everyone wins then. If you want simple, great...play simple. If you want complex, great...play complex.

Given how many people seem unhappy with current design, I am puzzled as to why Blizz seems to be doubling down on this. As I said above, the only thing that makes sense to me is if they are intending to expand the game to non-PC/Mac platforms.

Moreidan
Yo CMs(or Watcher), you guys said you wanna improve communications well here you go.
11/01/2018 07:26 AMPosted by Shadøw
Yo CMs(or Watcher), you guys said you wanna improve communications well here you go.


They want to "Improve communication" on Azerite, because it's the flagship feature of this expansion that has flopped.

On this? They won't touch it. And not even because of the "inflammatory" title. CMs edited the title of the last thread to be less inflammatory (And gave no response), and they routinely dodge any and all criticism regarding modern class design.
Ever since the artifact system and them adding artifact abilities, traits, and now AZ traits, it almost feels like blizzard is doing everything they can to add talents back, with out actually making them talents.

I mean i wish blizzard would just say, yeah we screwed up, talent pruning was bad, AZ traits are now talents, here are 2 more talent rows you unlock.
I have to say I agree mostly with the OP. I think it's fitting that OP is a warrior, as I think BFA is the worst (at least prot) has felt since I can remember, and I have mained prot since 2009.
11/01/2018 01:51 PMPosted by Reesespieces
11/01/2018 07:26 AMPosted by Shadøw
Yo CMs(or Watcher), you guys said you wanna improve communications well here you go.


They want to "Improve communication" on Azerite, because it's the flagship feature of this expansion that has flopped.

On this? They won't touch it. And not even because of the "inflammatory" title. CMs edited the title of the last thread to be less inflammatory (And gave no response), and they routinely dodge any and all criticism regarding modern class design.
Really? I always wondered why the title of the last topic was changed but I shouldn't be surprised. The mods or whoever the hell manages the forums has proven to be inconsistent with their duties.
They gutted our classes and expected Azerite to compensate after losing artifacts, tier bonuses, and legendaries. They were wrong.

If things don't improve, I will finally quit this game that I played since 2004.
Pruning this exp was so bad.
It's feels really sad cuz in legion the class design was so great with artifacts.
11/01/2018 03:55 AMPosted by Reesespieces
10/31/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Omegon
Let me say this again.

MOP sucked. Just because that’s when you were 13 and started playing the game does not make it good. Stop propping up MOP anything besides challenge mode dungeons. Class designs was bloated and utterly boring with incredibly tedious abilities added such as rune of power.

This feels like an echo chamber of people who have no unique ideas but want to hop on a bandwagon because of few loud mouths told them so. Game isn’t great but MOP was worse.


Actually I started playing in Vanilla, nice try though!

Did MoP have problems? Yeah, sure. But it was 100x better in every regard than anything that's come since. With regard to class design specifically, we've absolutely gone off the rails since then.


Mop most certainly had its problems, everyone has different opinions and tbh i don't rate Mop highly myself in terms of content i actually thought it was average, but it had awesome class design and that is what made it decent imo. The only classes that they really messed up was tanks, vengeance was OP.
10/31/2018 05:35 AMPosted by Kithicor
Interesting classes is why I keep playing FFXIV or EQ2 on the side. The classes in this game have been a total mess since WoD.


And the thing with FFXIV, is that just about all the jobs keep building on themselves each expansion. Someone could come back to a job they haven't touched in years and get right back into the step of things.
Echo chamber, ho amber, o mber, ber....
11/01/2018 07:26 AMPosted by Shadøw
Yo CMs(or Watcher), you guys said you wanna improve communications well here you go.


You think they do but they don't
All these people who say you can play a spec with 4-6 buttons, that is exaggeration. Lets pick what would be the simplest spec, Vengeance Demon Hunter.

Demon Spikes
Disrupt
Fiery Brand
Immolation Aura
Infernal Strike
Metamorphosis
Shear
Sigil of Flames
Sigil of Chains
Sigil of Misery
Soul Cleave
Spectral Sight
Throw Glaive
Torment
plus Healing Potion

That's 15 keybinds. Also you could take up to 4 clickable PvE talents. Plus up to 4 clickable PvP talents, which would take it up to 23 keybinds.
Honestly the pruning doesn't bother me nearly as much as the GCD change. That was a pure nerf to fun.

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