Blizzard you FAILED. Worst Class Design in the Game's History. Part II

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I miss old Survival... but I digress.

MoP was amazing, class design wise. WoD wasn't bad. Past that? Everything is a hollow shell of its former self.

What hurts the most is that we've lost so much of what made our classes different. No new talents. We have had literally zero character growth in two expansions. MMO's are about the journey, the growth during the journey and upon hitting cap, doing well, max level stuff.

The journey is "okay". The lack of character growth during it however, is not. Level cap is usually fine but it leaves more to be desired, largely because our classes are hollow and require very little thought. Its like push 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 4. Hey my CD is up! Back to 1...1...2... it makes me sad.

While I can understand wanting to prune some things, it was taken way too far. Classes have lost way too much.

A balance can be achieved but Blizzard always seems to enjoy swinging the pendulum too fast and too far.

It feels worse too when things we had suddenly become talents.

There is hope, if Blizzard is truly listening and seeking feedback from so many now...

Fingers crossed.
The classes now feel dated in all honesty. I know people will disagree but I would of loved to see something fun that has classes feel fluid and spells that emphasize that spec you play - - - also feeling like the spec you are playing.

Add that to the fact that the squish slowed down everything... I've not been enjoying any spec unfortunately.
Its bad, very bad. For holy paladin they took a few things away when transitioning from Legion to BFA and moved 1 pvp ability ( Avenging Crusader ) to the pve talents and called it a day. What a surprise, a lot of complaints now and I've lost just about all interest in wanting to play this spec whatsoever.
The biggest pain is the Global Cooldowns are now just PAINFUL, the fun of play is being sucked out of the game to make everything fit on Consoles. You can see a real limit being put on number of abilities and number of options. For the first time using the WOW interface I have blank spots on my bars??????

Old magazine said it best:
"Man dearly loves to complicate things, but no one is ever fascinated with a Crescent Wrench."

That means SIMPLIFIED IS BORING, understand that Blizzard?
I’d like them to revert the classes back to WOD or MOP but I actually loved the Cata class skill trees and wish we had those back. The classes are in the worst state since I started playing in Cata.

I hate the GCD also.

I’d love to see Blizz implement a rule where content wasn’t removed but only added.
10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
After 869 Upvotes, the last thread hit post limit.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768907172?page=1

I wanted to bring this thread back now that Blizzard is apparently handing out surveys to see what exactly they did wrong.

Previous post:
I had problems with certain elements of MoP Class design, namely the new talent trees. But all of my gripes back then are just completely trivial in light of what's come since.

Can this company just realize that they dropped the ball in WoD and classes really haven't been fun since then?

5.4 Class Design should be used as a starting point for abilities/talents going forward.

I'm sick of having niche spells taken away, I'm sick of having baseline utility scrapped and handed back as a talent, I'm tired of my class being reinvented to be completely unrecognizable from what it was when I rolled the character.

Just go back. Don't try to "improve" this mess, don't "iterate" on it. You've been trying that since 6.0, and it's still complete garbage.


To expand upon the above:
1.) Removing baseline, niche abilities (Stances, etc.) and handing them back as talents is bad.
2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad
3.) Discouraging things like AMS soaking and Berserker Stance (Termed by Ion as "degenerate playstyles") is bad.
4.) Redesigning classes so that they're mechanically unrecognizable is bad.
5.) Removing gameplay options like 2h Frost is bad and hasn't improved balance
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious.

All of that is a given, but there's a bigger problem rooted in Artifacts and Azerite:
Farming to unlock my class' full potential is awful.

I don't want my class to be a barebones hollow shell of its former self, just so you can put me on a treadmill to grind out abilities or passives that I should have baseline at max level.

It's simply not fun, it's not interesting, and the game is worse off for it.

The best case scenario is that you strike a very difficult balance and manage to patch over SOME of the gaps in my class without making certain traits mandatory. You've yet to strike that balance, and you really should stop trying.

Azerite traits specifically constitute a failure at a foundational level. I know people have hopped off the "Azerite Gear" train since you've added vendors and put in SUPER INTERESTING TRAITS (More on that later), but it's inherently linked to modern class design, and thus deserves scorn.

The traits themselves are stuck in an odd position where they NEED to make classes more interesting, but are limited in how interesting they can actually be. There's a hard ceiling on what Azerite traits can do, simply because they're limited to a single slot, and Blizzard doesn't want any specific trait to feel mandatory.

You're trying to strike a balance between two things that are actually mutually exclusive.

Beyond that, has anyone taken a look at the datamined 8.1 Azerite traits? They're extremely boring. Take the Unholy one, for example: You have to pay attention to position when popping Dark Transformation to get AoE damage.

Real interesting, right? Paying attention to positioning when popping a cooldown is going to make up for the lackluster mess the spec has been for a while.

tl;dr: Azerite Gear/Artifact Traits and Pruning are a mistake. They haven't made the game better, they've made the game worse. Classes are not more enjoyable, or more balanced now. They're less enjoyable and balance is a joke (Ask shamans!)

Just. Go. Back. Stop it with this. You've been trying "pruning" since WoD, where class design was bad. You've been trying auxiliary systems that complete classes since Legion, where class design was bad. I don't want to grind to play my character, I'll happily grind rep, or attunements, but I don't want to grind so my class isn't completely uninteresting (Spoiler alert: Even after grinding, it's still not fun to play)


Agreed. I know it's not going to happen but we need MoP classes again. The game is so boring now.
100% agree about baseline things being given to us as talents. Let's look at on of the mage's most useful abilities - Frozen Orb - which gets stuck on geometry in the environment regularly, forcing me to have to run into melee on a trash pack or boss fight if I wanna be certain it goes where I want it to go. Blizzard HAS the solution in the game already - Concentrated Coolness - a PVP talent that lets me cast it on a spot but it doesn't move. A perfect solution, except as soon as I enter a dungeon or raid this talent is disabled.

It's absolutely frustrating.
I have to agree with some of this and especially about the absolute redesign of classes every XPAC..

It was why I always seem to have to restart the game if I have been away between xpacs as the learning curve plus the time away make class fluidity completely non-existent ..

I know some people like the change up but rather than spending so much time on class changes that time would be spent MUCH more fruitfully on actual game design in mind … bigger areas better quests and the like ..

BUT this is only my 2 cents worth of opinion and I can understand some people like the changes ..

maybe time and subs will speak and tell me if I am right it
Class design is the best it has ever been, it’s the rest of the game that sucks in my opinion.
10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
After 869 Upvotes, the last thread hit post limit.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768907172?page=1

I wanted to bring this thread back now that Blizzard is apparently handing out surveys to see what exactly they did wrong.

Previous post:
...

To expand upon the above:
1.) Removing baseline, niche abilities (Stances, etc.) and handing them back as talents is bad.
2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad
3.) Discouraging things like AMS soaking and Berserker Stance (Termed by Ion as "degenerate playstyles") is bad.
4.) Redesigning classes so that they're mechanically unrecognizable is bad.
5.) Removing gameplay options like 2h Frost is bad and hasn't improved balance
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious.

All of that is a given, but there's a bigger problem rooted in Artifacts and Azerite:
Farming to unlock my class' full potential is awful.

I don't want my class to be a barebones hollow shell of its former self, just so you can put me on a treadmill to grind out abilities or passives that I should have baseline at max level.

It's simply not fun, it's not interesting, and the game is worse off for it.

The best case scenario is that you strike a very difficult balance and manage to patch over SOME of the gaps in my class without making certain traits mandatory. You've yet to strike that balance, and you really should stop trying.

Azerite traits specifically constitute a failure at a foundational level. I know people have hopped off the "Azerite Gear" train since you've added vendors and put in SUPER INTERESTING TRAITS (More on that later), but it's inherently linked to modern class design, and thus deserves scorn.

The traits themselves are stuck in an odd position where they NEED to make classes more interesting, but are limited in how interesting they can actually be. There's a hard ceiling on what Azerite traits can do, simply because they're limited to a single slot, and Blizzard doesn't want any specific trait to feel mandatory.

You're trying to strike a balance between two things that are actually mutually exclusive.

Beyond that, has anyone taken a look at the datamined 8.1 Azerite traits? They're extremely boring. Take the Unholy one, for example: You have to pay attention to position when popping Dark Transformation to get AoE damage.

Real interesting, right? Paying attention to positioning when popping a cooldown is going to make up for the lackluster mess the spec has been for a while.

tl;dr: Azerite Gear/Artifact Traits and Pruning are a mistake. They haven't made the game better, they've made the game worse. Classes are not more enjoyable, or more balanced now. They're less enjoyable and balance is a joke (Ask shamans!)

Just. Go. Back. Stop it with this. You've been trying "pruning" since WoD, where class design was bad. You've been trying auxiliary systems that complete classes since Legion, where class design was bad. I don't want to grind to play my character, I'll happily grind rep, or attunements, but I don't want to grind so my class isn't completely uninteresting (Spoiler alert: Even after grinding, it's still not fun to play)


Agreed. I know it's not going to happen but we need MoP classes again. The game is so boring now.


well here is another ty for letting me know I am not the only one ;)
WTB aspects, auras, totems, presences, and stances. It was almost like you had utility and choice / counterplay in pve / pve.
10/27/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Volchangar
I have been making posts too to bring back MoP class design.


I would shut up if they gave me my meta lock back.
This doesn't really affect Rogue much. Good luck to the rest of you guys though.
10/27/2018 03:51 PMPosted by Ragnaroke
I have to agree with some of this and especially about the absolute redesign of classes every XPAC..

It was why I always seem to have to restart the game if I have been away between xpacs as the learning curve plus the time away make class fluidity completely non-existent ..

I know some people like the change up but rather than spending so much time on class changes that time would be spent MUCH more fruitfully on actual game design in mind … bigger areas better quests and the like ..

BUT this is only my 2 cents worth of opinion and I can understand some people like the changes ..

maybe time and subs will speak and tell me if I am right it


Yeah I can't invest in a class if it's just going to change completely because the design team can't leave things alone.
I miss feeling like the class first and the spec second. In Legion they did pruning in the name of class fantasy, but many classes had shared spells that were made spec specific. This feels bad. I miss flame shock as enhance, poisons for sub and combat. Specializing shouldn't mean you lose some of the base tools of your class.
The most important thing and the best thing WoW ever had going for it was the combat. They completely Fd it up in this expansion. I just can't understand who decided this was good for the game. I can't. It's mindblowing that they had such good gameplay for so many years and just threw it out - for what? For e-sport balance?

It's ridiculous. Whoever is in charge, needs to reevaluate why they bother showing up to work. It's like all they had to do was keep the game on cruise control and just add good content to it. That's it. They didn't need to reinvent gravity, or do some hokey thing like Azerite. Just make the game that everyone loved, and it would have been fine.
10/27/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Reesespieces
Classes are the vehicle through which you interact with all other forms of content. If your class isn't fun, the enjoyableness of the content you're doing will be poisoned as well.


I'm upset I can't like the comment more then once.
I made a similiar post to this, but i said something like class design sucks! give us our abilities back!

Hopefully they will listen to your way of talking more.

We need brolinka to come in here and lay the smack down on ion!
10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious.
You have no idea how much I hate what they did with this GCD. Gameplay feels so damn &%$ing slow, boring, tedious
On legion -as protec pally- I felt I was useful on raid, using heals, defensive cooldowns, and ofensive cooldown in shorts amounts of time.
Now, just trying to heal a friend or using a def-CD, feels irritating because it has to be done NOW and not in like 1,5 secs later... and forget about trying to help with more than 1 spell, by the time you are trying to use it, your friend is already dead
This thing made me hate this game so much that, if I werent GuildMaster I would already quit the game (I promised friends on guild I'll keep a raiding schedule for BfA, and want to keep my word)
10/27/2018 12:09 PMPosted by Reesespieces
After 869 Upvotes, the last thread hit post limit.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768907172?page=1


Well let's get you 869 more then.

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