Blizzard you FAILED. Worst Class Design in the Game's History. Part II

General Discussion
Prev 1 6 7 8 14 Next
So I actually went through and read all, what, 7 pages there now. A couple things jumped out at me.

10/27/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Volchangar
Completely agree, classes are the MOST important part of an mmo. I used to to not be able to decide on a main because all the classes were so fun (which is the most fun?). Now I cannot decide on a main because all the classes are so boring(which is the least boring?).

I have been making posts too to bring back MoP class design.


Right? I couldn't decide what I wanted to be in Wrath, everything was fun! I was a pally tank, a Mut rogue and a resto druid and I raided with each one of them! I loved the fact that I could grab a class off the rack, make it my own and it was AWESOME in the right hands.

Now I look at the login screen going "Which class sucks the least." I'm actively not leveling past 110 because I can't bring myself to do it. It doesn't matter to me how great the devs tell me the game is, it doesn't feel great. Perception and perspective is everything. I should be able to visit a leveling zone in 340+ gear and nuke EVERYTHING with impunity.

And just my $0.02, I was a main SV from BC until WoD because our guild needed healers. Words players never said "You know what WoW needs? More melee DPS." I loved being a nature damage based ranged. It was all the good stuff about a caster without the squishy nonsense.

I've said this time and again, there's no one out there demanding every class be redesigned each expansion. I'd be happy with a couple new abilities when I level up, some of the abilities I have tweaked because of the new ones and that's all. Remember with MoP where you got a new ability every 2 levels and nothing else really changed? It felt like I was growing stronger.

The thing that really bothered me the most is that the people doing the pruning (remember Celestalon?) Openly admitted on the forums when players were complaining about the pruning for sub rogue that he didn't understand the spec or the abilities or how they interracted with each other. This is the guy in charge of the pruning and he admits he doesn't know to do his job?! I don't understand why Blizzard keeps throwing good money after bad.

The eviscerated classes, the feeling weaker when I should be stronger, all the iconic abilities missing, the grindy feel of everything and with the GCD, not only am I actually physically weaker, I attack slower too? It's rubbing salt in the wound.

It's not about WoW being an "old game" and "showing its age." There's plenty of older games with active followings today (was surprised to see how many players are playing Red Alert 1 and CnC 95 the other day).

I'm honestly fed up with being told I'm having fun wrong, that I don't see the bigger picture. That I think I want that, but I really don't want that.
After MoP there definitly was a noticble drop in class design. I know people rag on the WoW community for not being too bright, but I honestly have more faith in them that at least most didn’t get confused by a few more buttons and claimed a bloat. Between profession streamlining and class pruning I can’t help but feel it’s moving away from an MMORPG and more into a lobby based pve game. I would love for them to revert, but I honestly don’t think they have it in them to do so, or even recognize what players miss/like. It sucks to say but I feel like we just gotta ride this out until something major changes over there
10/29/2018 09:58 PMPosted by Papachi
So I actually went through and read all, what, 7 pages there now. A couple things jumped out at me.

10/27/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Volchangar
Completely agree, classes are the MOST important part of an mmo. I used to to not be able to decide on a main because all the classes were so fun (which is the most fun?). Now I cannot decide on a main because all the classes are so boring(which is the least boring?).

I have been making posts too to bring back MoP class design.


Right? I couldn't decide what I wanted to be in Wrath, everything was fun! I was a pally tank, a Mut rogue and a resto druid and I raided with each one of them! I loved the fact that I could grab a class off the rack, make it my own and it was AWESOME in the right hands.

Now I look at the login screen going "Which class sucks the least." I'm actively not leveling past 110 because I can't bring myself to do it. It doesn't matter to me how great the devs tell me the game is, it doesn't feel great. Perception and perspective is everything. I should be able to visit a leveling zone in 340+ gear and nuke EVERYTHING with impunity.

And just my $0.02, I was a main SV from BC until WoD because our guild needed healers. Words players never said "You know what WoW needs? More melee DPS." I loved being a nature damage based ranged. It was all the good stuff about a caster without the squishy nonsense.

I've said this time and again, there's no one out there demanding every class be redesigned each expansion. I'd be happy with a couple new abilities when I level up, some of the abilities I have tweaked because of the new ones and that's all. Remember with MoP where you got a new ability every 2 levels and nothing else really changed? It felt like I was growing stronger.

The thing that really bothered me the most is that the people doing the pruning (remember Celestalon?) Openly admitted on the forums when players were complaining about the pruning for sub rogue that he didn't understand the spec or the abilities or how they interracted with each other. This is the guy in charge of the pruning and he admits he doesn't know to do his job?! I don't understand why Blizzard keeps throwing good money after bad.

The eviscerated classes, the feeling weaker when I should be stronger, all the iconic abilities missing, the grindy feel of everything and with the GCD, not only am I actually physically weaker, I attack slower too? It's rubbing salt in the wound.

It's not about WoW being an "old game" and "showing its age." There's plenty of older games with active followings today (was surprised to see how many players are playing Red Alert 1 and CnC 95 the other day).

I'm honestly fed up with being told I'm having fun wrong, that I don't see the bigger picture. That I think I want that, but I really don't want that.


This, the amount classes and specs I played in wrath for raiding and pvp was warrior, rogue, hunter, paladin, mage, shaman and lock.

I never experienced as much of the game as I did in wrath, and I still wanted to try all the other classes because they all looked like they were incredibly fun to play.

I have this solo 120 and no desire to level an alt and I don't even want to try and get the gear to try the other specs of this class.

I literally chose survival because it still has alot going on, and trying to play an ele sham in BFA after I got to experience the amazing frostquake spec during antorus would just make me miss how it used to play so much I know I would have unsubbed by now had I stuck with it.
10/29/2018 10:31 PMPosted by Searik
After MoP there definitly was a noticble drop in class design. I know people rag on the WoW community for not being too bright, but I honestly have more faith in them that at least most didn’t get confused by a few more buttons and claimed a bloat. Between profession streamlining and class pruning I can’t help but feel it’s moving away from an MMORPG and more into a lobby based pve game. I would love for them to revert, but I honestly don’t think they have it in them to do so, or even recognize what players miss/like. It sucks to say but I feel like we just gotta ride this out until something major changes over there


You realize the next major change at blizzard wrt wow will be mothballing it, scaling way back on content, devoting less resources too it, adding more things to the cash shop and eventually releasing actual expansions without raid content.

Basically they will follow in the path of EQ, which is technically "not dead" if you have a very generous definition of life.
10/29/2018 10:54 PMPosted by Driggins
You realize the next major change at blizzard wrt wow will be mothballing it, scaling way back on content, devoting less resources too it, adding more things to the cash shop and eventually releasing actual expansions without raid content.

Basically they will follow in the path of EQ, which is technically "not dead" if you have a very generous definition of life.

I feel like they've already done this.
If you need an egregious example of how pruning/redesigning/dumbing down has hurt a class/spec, you need not look any farther than Subtlety for Rogue. They turned Subtlety, arguably the most difficult class to play since WoW's inception, into a buttonmasher.

I know a lot of people like it but I also am not a big fan of dual wield Frost DK. I much preferred the feel of 2hander Frost.
10/29/2018 08:06 PMPosted by Sesshomaru
You know, I think people have misconceptions of this movement.

It isn't that people saying to revert to MoP aren't actually wanting to simply play that expansion again, it is the design philosophy of the classes that we wish to return to.

Do not forget, Mists of Pandaria was what came before WoD and after Cata. There are reasons people hold that time period in high regard. To figure out why, simply read the OP and the innumerable others like it all over the forums.


People hold it in high regard, despite the pandas, because their characters were the best this game has ever been for them to play.

This whole notion of HAVING to change things all the time, every xpac, is literally crazy from a business perspective.

They had a very successful product and changed it up frequently, drastically, just for the sake of change.

Classes were pretty much perfect to play in MoP, there was no reason to change any of it. All people want is new adventures for their characters to go on ... should be ridiculously obvious as to why anyone sticks around in this game. They like their characters, enjoy the collections and achievements their characters amass.

They don't want to relearn their characters and have their characters change drastically and lose abilities.

New abilities never needed to be brought in, new adventures do.
Honestly, at this point i'm just going to let my sub run out and find another MMO that actually cares about it's player base. This tug of war of Blizz taking everything and giving back scraps is tiresome, I don't login and have fun anymore. WoW has literally become nothing more than bothersome chore.

Don't think i'll be coming back either cause it's been a downward trend for multiple expansions now.

It's a real shame.
I have been asking this question for years! Though I do not think MoP was the most enjoyable in terms of class design (I much prefer BC or WotLK) I do think that since MoP it has been most noticeable how poorly classes are designed. There are a few reasons I can give as to why things have fallen so far.

The first and foremost is the change from the "Bring the class" to "Bring the player" mentality. While it is true that you should always bring the better player to the raid, without reason for a class/spec to be in said raid, most players would never bring them anyway. In the pre-cata era this was handled well by the distribution of buffs/CC/Inturupts between the various classes. For example, in BC elemental shamans were the ONLY spec that brought a unique spell crit/spell pwr buff to the raid. This would significantly offset the amount of damage they needed to do to be competitive in a raid environment due to the extra damage/healing the 24 other players would be able to provide. The fact that this buff was group centric and not raid centric also incentivised having a few ele shamans depending on your raids composition. CC was also given importance as CC was often restricted to certain types of mobs, meaning you would need certain classes to deal with certain mobs.

These kind of niches no longer exist in the current game. As such a classes viability is purely determined by the dps/hps it can output. The reason why pulling 5% less damage than a different spec is so significant these days, its because when everyone has roughly the same amount of buffs/CC/Inturupts your damage and healing is all you have left to judge if a class/spec if worth bringing or not.

Unfortunately I don't see this mentality ever going away until blizzard stops pushing WoW as an esport (be it PvP or PvE). Because M+ and world first clears are the front runner of the PvE esport scene, they NEED all classes to have similar utility else people would be running the exact same group composition for every boss/encounter as it is the MOST efficient way of doing it in a certain time limit. Esport PvP is the same, if different classes actually hard countered anything then the arena tournament would just be determined by the luck of the draw, with the winner being the team who faced the most favorable comps rather than out playing them. To make it an even playing field they NEED all classes to be similar in terms of utility else there is no competitive aspect to PvP.

For me personally, I know I am just one of those millions of players who will never be in that top 0.1% of pvp teams or raiding guilds so I see no point nor have any interest in the competitive scene. What I want to have is fun! which means having lots of diversity, which in turn means having huge imbalances. This is fine, part of forming a party in RPGs is to not only to build a group that is tailored to everyone's strengths but also overcoming the type of content you are facing (dungeon with lots of elementals immune to fire e.t.c).

TLDR: Esports ruined class design, was in its best state BC-WotLK, without class diversity dps/hps is all that matters.
10/29/2018 10:56 PMPosted by Alvidius
If you need an egregious example of how pruning/redesigning/dumbing down has hurt a class/spec, you need not look any farther than Subtlety for Rogue. They turned Subtlety, arguably the most difficult class to play since WoW's inception, into a buttonmasher.

I know a lot of people like it but I also am not a big fan of dual wield Frost DK. I much preferred the feel of 2hander Frost.


Right? Did you see what I wrote about Celestalon? "I don't know how your spec works" was his defense. 0.o
Now I look at the login screen going "Which class sucks the least." I'm actively not leveling past 110 because I can't bring myself to do it. It doesn't matter to me how great the devs tell me the game is, it doesn't feel great. Perception and perspective is everything. I should be able to visit a leveling zone in 340+ gear and nuke EVERYTHING with impunity.


This so very much. I have ONE 120. He isn't even my main! I just can't bring myself to level my main(this character) in this content. It felt bad to level on my Paladin, heck, I nearly called it quits while doing so!

Why? CLASS DESIGN FAILURES. Sub runs out in I think 2 days. Sucks mang.
Where are all the green shills at?
10/29/2018 11:29 PMPosted by Abcdefgeek
Where are all the green shills at?


Did you ever stop beating your wife?

loaded questions...
No spec in this game right now comes remotely close to MoP demo and old unholy dk in terms of depth and how engaging it is. The fact that demo was gutted to make way for a 2 button 2 spec class blows my mind.

I don't understand how they thought the legion class redesigns were a good idea. These are classes people have 10+ year connections with and they were completely changed in to something else overnight despite colossal amounts of feedback.

Idk if having Holinka back and in charge of class design will turn the tides or not but I sure hope he brings back some actual gameplay.

I also want to throw in that if classes ever DO get more sweeping changes,
wotlk-MoP style classes should be used as a starting point for class design, not legion style classes which is what i'm concerned they might do if they finally do decide to give back spells.

anyways +1
10/29/2018 10:31 PMPosted by Searik
After MoP there definitly was a noticble drop in class design.


In Cataclysm Hunters (class) got the max level class defining ability Camouflage. All three specializations. In Mists of Pandaria Hunters (class) got the class defining ability Stampede. All three specializations.

This was back when classes were classes with common themes and shared abilities and specializations were actual specializations and not mini-classes that simply branched out from the shared core into different, *ahem*, specializations.

36 watered down bare bones "specializations" removes the feel of the actual class to the detriment of the game. Particularly when Blizzard started with round wheels (MoP) and keep adding flat spots and spikes in efforts to "improve" said wheels.
10/27/2018 01:29 PMPosted by Kurrocaz
10/27/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Paeldryth
...

MoP classes were already borderline bloated, and imagine if they just kept adding more and more each expansion. Not even a gaming mouse would suffice.

I do feel pruning and then tying spec flavor and abilities to gear was a mistake though.


Oh I actually agree with what you brought up lol, it was just a placeholder!

However I would take bloat over this garbage we have now.


That's the thing about so-called "Bloat", though. Most "Bloat" is situational/niche abilities that the less skilled can ignore with next to no impact on core numbers, but it adds flavor and fun to people that choose to learn the intricacies of the class. Now, you can play a class for 2 days and basically master it, and the gap between and "average" and "good" player is nearly nonexistent. There's nothing to really strive for or keep things interesting.
10/28/2018 12:11 AMPosted by Murdina
I think you are in the 1% with that view most of us here believe the opposite.

I suspect most players are happy or at least okay with class changes. Its just that the minority who are unhappy about them are also the most vocal

What I don't like is that every time they do an expansion they change the classes so much you have to completely relearn how to use your main! It's very frustrating

This is probably necessary to try and keep the game fresh and players engaged.


No matter how much you spout that crap, it still doesn't make it true. The game is very clearly hemmorhaging subs, Blizzard's actions are proof. That 'vocal minority' crap proves you live in a bubble.
Blizzard has decided that disposable class design is best for their developers. What's best for us is irrelevant as evidenced by the fact that we're still here subscribing.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I'd love to play BfA, but I literally can't stomach logging in because class design is so bad.

Honestly, I've really only had passing interest in WoW since WoD hit, which, coincidentally, was around the time Class Design went to Hell. Imagine that.


Understandable, but the fact that you haven't played the game lessens the effect and viability of your criticisms. Since you are talking about things you haven't experienced.


You on a new account? I mean wouldn't that logic apply to you to then? cause it looks like you are a new player.

I've played a lot . like way more than a sane person should for 10 years and class design should offer versatility , diversity and most importantly fun.

Classes were in pretty good state after the change to talents from skill points in Mop, but anyone who has played the game through these changes can not say that Blizzard have progressed on class design cause that's a flat out lie , they have regressed.

You see the world through your character , if you don't enjoy your character how you meant to enjoy everything else?
10/27/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Volchangar
Completely agree, classes are the MOST important part of an mmo. I used to to not be able to decide on a main because all the classes were so fun (which is the most fun?). Now I cannot decide on a main because all the classes are so boring(which is the least boring?).

I have been making posts too to bring back MoP class design.


I have to agree completely. I don't really want to bash the game because I love WoW however class fantasy trumps everything else for me including this faction business.

Classes don't feel as special now.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum