Why bring a ret over an assassination rogue?

Tides of Vengeance PTR General Discussion
Both are claimed to be amazing single target specs yet why is it that assassination gets to also have amazing cleave and AOE damage on top of all their utility and mobility and ret does not?

And people wonder why no one brings a ret over a rogue in M+. I'm amazed this was never even addressed in beta. Such obvious imbalance.
11/01/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Ashenan
And people wonder why no one brings a ret over a rogue in M+
No one wonders that.

Blizzard is trying to cater to the "stop homogenizing!" crowd, and in doing so has eliminated many classes from being competitive in small-group content.
11/01/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Ashenan
Both are claimed to be amazing single target specs yet why is it that assassination gets to also have amazing cleave and AOE damage on top of all their utility and mobility and ret does not?

And people wonder why no one brings a ret over a rogue in M+. I'm amazed this was never even addressed in beta. Such obvious imbalance.


Are you trolling?????

Ret dumps on rogue in AoE by a LONG shot.
Ret has better utility by a long shot
Ret can off heal
Ret can rez
Ret ST is fine and not that far behind assass

Rogues have reliable stuns and cc.

Cry more
Ret has one baseline button to make AoE happen. Two if you talent for it. Rogue above me is trolling hard.

Numbers don't lie, bb.
http://bestkeystone.com

Mut Rogues: 1114
Ret Pals: 192

There are literally 5.8 rogues to ONE ret. But don't mind me. Keep believing ret blows rogue out of the water. We're the sleeper OP who will never be nerfed because we're all a secret M+ destroying order who carries teams on the backs of our words of glory and BoPs.
11/02/2018 04:04 PMPosted by Xyranthaeon
Numbers don't lie, bb.

Facts
Rogues have Shroud, and that will always make rogues a popular choice in M+.

However, the issues between rogue and retribution require you to understand what strengths and weaknesses both class and spec have.

Rogues have stuns, CCs, survivability, snares, consistent ST and acceptable AoE. Most of their utility is personal in staying alive- Cheat Death and Cloak of Shadows are wonderful for surviving an encounter or just cheesing mechanics. Blind is an on-demand CC to continue a chain if required, to stop a cast from going off if Kick is on cooldown, or to just have CC on a mob in the pull. Shroud is fantastic for letting people skip trash, and Distract is part of that as well as useful as sin for keeping patrols away juuuust long enough for the tank to reposition the group.

Retribution paladins, on the other hand, have utility that can be spread across the group, fantastic AoE, strong single target damage, and good personal survivability. Blessings, for one, are great for tanks and healers which really *does* matter depending on your group comp. Blessing of Freedom is incredibly valuable, particularly in places like Freehold or Tol Dagor. Blessing of Protection is also useful for clearing stacks or keeping someone from dying- and the same can be said for Lay on Hands.

Basically, both classes/specs have strengths and weaknesses, and it is the group's composition that should determine which is more valuable. There are good reasons to bring either, or both classes, depending on who else is available and what the week's affixes are.

Or, in short, you can definitely bring a ret if the rest of your group has its weaknesses covered by the ret's strengths.
11/02/2018 04:20 PMPosted by Kaeska
Rogues have Shroud, and that will always make rogues a popular choice in M+.

However, the issues between rogue and retribution require you to understand what strengths and weaknesses both class and spec have.

Rogues have stuns, CCs, survivability, snares, consistent ST and acceptable AoE. Most of their utility is personal in staying alive- Cheat Death and Cloak of Shadows are wonderful for surviving an encounter or just cheesing mechanics. Blind is an on-demand CC to continue a chain if required, to stop a cast from going off if Kick is on cooldown, or to just have CC on a mob in the pull. Shroud is fantastic for letting people skip trash, and Distract is part of that as well as useful as sin for keeping patrols away juuuust long enough for the tank to reposition the group.

Retribution paladins, on the other hand, have utility that can be spread across the group, fantastic AoE, strong single target damage, and good personal survivability. Blessings, for one, are great for tanks and healers which really *does* matter depending on your group comp. Blessing of Freedom is incredibly valuable, particularly in places like Freehold or Tol Dagor. Blessing of Protection is also useful for clearing stacks or keeping someone from dying- and the same can be said for Lay on Hands.

Basically, both classes/specs have strengths and weaknesses, and it is the group's composition that should determine which is more valuable. There are good reasons to bring either, or both classes, depending on who else is available and what the week's affixes are.

Or, in short, you can definitely bring a ret if the rest of your group has its weaknesses covered by the ret's strengths.


You realize rogues have better single target, aoe and cleave right? What game are you currently playing where Rets have fantastic AOE compared to an assassination rogue?
Lmao "fantastic aoe". Rogue's coming in here like people are asking for them to be nerfed when all Paladins are asking for is to be buffed up a bit so that we're wanted.
11/01/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Ashenan
Both are claimed to be amazing single target specs


No they aren't. Ret is the lowest melee class in Uldir and has no aoe.
Gotta tell yourself something crazy if you wanna keep on believing stuff is balanced.
11/02/2018 05:55 PMPosted by Xukon
11/01/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Ashenan
Both are claimed to be amazing single target specs


No they aren't. Ret is the lowest melee class in Uldir and has no aoe.


Hence why I said...claimed...
Uldir logs show Ret damage as competitive with a great many classes and specs on single target and AoE fights (representation is low, certainly, which is a better argument than actual performance), and if you want to talk about specs that are under represented in keystones, Feral is there at the actual, not hyperbolic, bottom.

The problem people here are facing is that Retribution isn't in the current meta, in spite of it being fully capable of competing with classes and specs that are. It's not a case of Ret not doing enough damage, it's a case of people not considering them at all because other classes and specs are seen as more favorable (one of the reasons why Frost Mage is getting its snares nerfed, fyi). I've run keys with Rets that have strong AoE because they recognize that most of the dungeon is trash fights.

Shroud is just that powerful. Anything that lets you skip huge swaths of trash is big. Assassination is easy (which is big, since it means anyone can pick up the spec and do well), does good damage, is hard to kill, and brings Shroud. I already laid that out. Ret is viable—it could use some buffs, certainly, but it's definitely viable in the here and now. It does good damage, has good utility, and can do quite well.

People just want to pick classes and specs that will let them cheese content, and Assassination lets them do that in spades most anywhere. It's why Frost mages are desirable in King's Rest (snaring the adds on the first boss), Rogues in Tol Dagor (all the friggen gates, trash skips), so on, so forth. The problem isn't classes or specs by and large, the problem is people.

For what it's worth, I honestly think Assassination's damage needs a nerf (as well as some unpruning, but that's neither here nor there), but I guarantee you that even after a damage nerf, Rogues will still be sought out for their utility first and foremost.
11/02/2018 11:06 PMPosted by Kaeska

For what it's worth, I honestly think Assassination's damage needs a nerf (as well as some unpruning, but that's neither here nor there), but I guarantee you that even after a damage nerf, Rogues will still be sought out for their utility first and foremost.


True but at least with lower damage it'll give classes that do more a decent enough chance to get into groups when DPS is required for certain dungeons. Right now there's no point in bringing anything else. Rogues have more utility, survivability and DPS. The twin brother of DH.
Correction: Assassination specifically needs lower damage. The other two rogue specs are more in-tune with what should be present.

I don't particularly like Assassination in its current incarnation (it's about as fun as watching paint dry), which is the primary reason why I've avoided the spec. Gimping myself by playing Subtlety means I'm less likely to get into a 10 or higher, but it's doable and infinitely less boring.

(FWIW, Subtlety has less representation than Retribution, so make of that what you will)
Representation for Ret is low in uldir because it's known their AoE and mobility are the worst and those are the two things you need for the important fights. Rets get benched for fetid and beyond.

It's even lower in m+ because our aoe is bad (I don't care how good you think ret looks on the meters after pushing wake of ashes. Our sustain aoe is trash). Our utility requires people to screw up to be good. BoP has very few instances where it can be used to cheesed. Hell, uldir only has one actual use for it.

Anyone who says ret has "fantastic aoe" and "better utility than a rogue" is a troll or delusional.
11/02/2018 02:13 PMPosted by Mercader
Ret dumps on rogue in AoE by a LONG shot.


10/10, good troll.
why bring anything over rogues really should have been your question
11/02/2018 04:36 PMPosted by Ashenan
11/02/2018 04:20 PMPosted by Kaeska
Rogues have Shroud, and that will always make rogues a popular choice in M+.

However, the issues between rogue and retribution require you to understand what strengths and weaknesses both class and spec have.

Rogues have stuns, CCs, survivability, snares, consistent ST and acceptable AoE. Most of their utility is personal in staying alive- Cheat Death and Cloak of Shadows are wonderful for surviving an encounter or just cheesing mechanics. Blind is an on-demand CC to continue a chain if required, to stop a cast from going off if Kick is on cooldown, or to just have CC on a mob in the pull. Shroud is fantastic for letting people skip trash, and Distract is part of that as well as useful as sin for keeping patrols away juuuust long enough for the tank to reposition the group.

Retribution paladins, on the other hand, have utility that can be spread across the group, fantastic AoE, strong single target damage, and good personal survivability. Blessings, for one, are great for tanks and healers which really *does* matter depending on your group comp. Blessing of Freedom is incredibly valuable, particularly in places like Freehold or Tol Dagor. Blessing of Protection is also useful for clearing stacks or keeping someone from dying- and the same can be said for Lay on Hands.

Basically, both classes/specs have strengths and weaknesses, and it is the group's composition that should determine which is more valuable. There are good reasons to bring either, or both classes, depending on who else is available and what the week's affixes are.

Or, in short, you can definitely bring a ret if the rest of your group has its weaknesses covered by the ret's strengths.


You realize rogues have better single target, aoe and cleave right? What game are you currently playing where Rets have fantastic AOE compared to an assassination rogue?


I could ask you the same thing. Assass has good cleave and ST. Notice he didnt say outlaw he said assass. Rets have better Aoe dmg than assass anything else is just pure troll and goes in the bin
For M+, rogue utility is pretty busted. Shroud is just too strong, and after 8.1 nerfs to Frost mage, Assassination has the best slow for kiting.

If you're talking pug world, typically yeah you'd take a rogue over a ret. But that depends largely on the keys you are doing and competency of the group. Rogue utility starts to shine in higher keys which a vast majority of the community simply doesn't do.

Players like to blame their class for being bad in M+, but its just a scapegoat. Theres people who play notably bad classes who still run 15 or higher keys. Yes certain classes are better, but most players aren't hitting that level.
In terms of aoe it depends on the spec for rogue.
Assassination has okay aoe
Sub has pitiful aoe unless you run master of shadows
Outlaw rogue has arguably the best aoe in the game atm, perhaps a close 2nd or tie even to frost mages
Both of them have great versatility and utility, I'm not too familiar with ret paladins but I know they're not a class to underestimate.
Depending on the dungeon, I would take a ret paladin on King's Rest over a rogue because of wake of ashes.
Or certain boss fights where ret can make themselves immune so the healer can focus on healing others. Ret can also effectively heal others/themselves, and rogue only has crimson vial on a 30 sec cd.
Arguably in terms of versatility and circumstances they should be about even, but I feel like rogues DO offer more.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum