"Garrosh was an amateur" - Sylvanas

Story Forum
Exactly.

“I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one. “I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued.

“I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin.

I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance—not unless we win it on the battlefield on our terms. And believing that, answer this, Saurfang: what use is delaying the inevitable?”
- Sylvanas


A hundred wrongs don't make a right. Sylvanas burning Teldrassil is going to go down as probably the most awful thing done in recent memory. I'd say something will eventually top it, but...again, if Blizzard's actually honest about this being the last hurrah for the faction war, maybe not.

I'm not the first person to point out that if her plan was to snuff out a desire for war before it began, it failed spectacularly because she just--ahem--fanned the flames.
Of course they dont but this is a deep racial hate that has been going on for 30 something years now. It took England and France centuries to stop being enemies. Only when England completely defeated Napoleon and France did the Blood feud finally end.

11/04/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Khaar
I'm not the first person to point out that if her plan was to snuff out a desire for war before it began, it failed spectacularly because she just--ahem--fanned the flames.


Well it failed because she needed to crush the spirit of the Elves and Malfurion's death was necessary. When Saurfang spared Malfurion she realized her plan would no longer work.

This conquest of Darnassus would rattle the kaldorei people. They would grieve for their lost, fear for their imprisoned, and tremble at the thought of the Horde ransacking their homes. But they would not fall to despair. Not anymore. Malfurion’s impossible survival would give them hope.

Their wound would heal.


She still intended to invade but she knew the war would only escalate instead of collapse as they held Darn hostage. So she had to make a different wound and the best she could think of was burning the tree.

"A wound that cannot heal. Sylvanas needed to think of a new way to inflict one. There was no turning back."
Bookmark this. Save all of these interviews invoking Sylvanas, morality, and Garrosh. Respectfully, I want this thrown at their faces at the end of this expansion. They’re either liars, or terrible at communicating.
Sylvanas' plan was moronic from the start, and her alterations only made it worse. She has the same problem as Garrosh.

Specifically, that she's a small-picture tactician trying to pretend she's a big-picture Warchief. She was a Ranger-General. She wasn't in a palisade delegating orders and deciding wartime policy; she was on the front lines, personally leading the defenses. Her brand of expertise belongs on the battlefield leading troops, not orchestrating the geopolitical machinations of the war.

She's like Garrosh. Or Arthas. Or reaching outside the franchise, Kylo Ren. All people who belong on the ground making tactical moves, yet end up in a position to strategically run the whole show, unaware that they're the last people who should be put in charge of everything because their way of thinking doesn't belong at the top and is likely to sink the entire operation.
11/04/2018 09:56 PMPosted by Cannibal
They most certainly lied. They lied to us about Garrosh too.
Garrosh is a character with a lot to prove. I realize there's a great deal of consternation out there concerning the tales of what's to come, but I want to reassure you that we understand that concern. We know where you're coming from. Why are we still going this route? With all respect, you haven't seen the entirety of who Garrosh is. You've seen a great deal of his faults, certainly, but people grow over time, and you may find, come Cataclysm, that he is not quite the disaster you portend.
-Kisirani, former World Event Designer
Garrosh has so much to prove. It's no secret lots of people are concerned that Garrosh has so far displayed a wide variety of negative and faulted traits, and it's to be expected that folks will be worried should an Orc with a temper as hot as the one Garrosh has shown so far take lead of the Horde. With that said, what's to say that in time, or given certain events that his temperament won't be altered?
-Ancilorn, former Online Community Representative for the EU Forums
They told us we wouldn't be getting another Warchief-turned-villain, and then go out of their way to make the Warchief do villainous things. Only difference is, this time, the Horde are canonically supporting her for some reason, even though we revolted against Garrosh for doing less evil things.


Do you have a place where those and other bits on Garrosh are archived Cannibal? I'd love to keep bringing them up.
More and more I end up wondering if the original draft for the start of the war wasn't meant for Turyalon, over the course of Before the Storm, to come to accept the Forsaken as still the people of Lorderon, but view them as oppressed by Slyvanas, and end up convincing Anduin the time had come to "liberate" Lorderon and put a living Calia on the throne.
11/04/2018 10:03 PMPosted by Ningjinq
Problem is looking at the Horde = the warchief. Blizzard does not see it that way.

Other problem is that people need to realize the story needs to last an entire xpac. They can’t just have the Horde off Sylvanas in 8.0 or 8.1.
Not with that attitude.
Maybe she’s taken up Xal to imprison the old god and void influences in the dagger. Kinda like a cosmic vacuum cleaner.

What she does with that power is pretty up in the air. It could drive her mad, but I always thought the undead were quite a bit resistant to void influence. At least in so far as sanity goes. She could actually end up breaking and controlling the power she gets.
11/05/2018 01:48 AMPosted by Sigmar
Maybe she’s taken up Xal to imprison the old god and void influences in the dagger. Kinda like a cosmic vacuum cleaner.

What she does with that power is pretty up in the air. It could drive her mad, but I always thought the undead were quite a bit resistant to void influence. At least in so far as sanity goes. She could actually end up breaking and controlling the power she gets.
Xal is freed from the dagger at the end of Crucible of Storms, so I have to think the dagger is gonna be the crux of either her fall(Heart of Y'Shaarj 2) or redemption.
11/05/2018 05:15 AMPosted by Kyveli
11/05/2018 01:48 AMPosted by Sigmar
Maybe she’s taken up Xal to imprison the old god and void influences in the dagger. Kinda like a cosmic vacuum cleaner.

What she does with that power is pretty up in the air. It could drive her mad, but I always thought the undead were quite a bit resistant to void influence. At least in so far as sanity goes. She could actually end up breaking and controlling the power she gets.
Xal is freed from the dagger at the end of Crucible of Storms, so I have to think the dagger is gonna be the crux of either her fall(Heart of Y'Shaarj 2) or redemption.


If they go with the redemption arc, I'm out. She's waaaay too far gone. Genocide + death camps = no redemption possible.
All arguments that Sylvanas is anything more than a monster went out the window when she burnt a city with the population still in it.

No amount of "pragamatism" could ever justify that. Heck, even Arthas had a better reason to cull Stratholm- the plague was so prolific, and they had no way to combat it.

I try to be sympathetic towards Sylvanas fans in this, but that sympathy is limited to "I'm sorry that a character that you enjoy is now one of Azeroth's biggest mass murderers". And I mean that. I have some very long time friends going back to Vanilla that still defend her, and care enough that I just keep my mouth shut on the topic around them.

But lets be realistic here. She has always been on the line. And that is fine, for what it is. Since vanilla, she's been involved with human experimentation, mind control, and plague development. She was interesting to me then, because it felt like she was forging a weapon to use against Arthas, who seemed like an impossible foe.

And then, we killed him. And she wasn't even involved. The character, even more than Jaina, who's story arc was tied to Arthas, wasn't there at the end.

And then we got her invading and blighting Gilneas. At the behest of Garrosh in the former case, and raising the dead, with the incongruity of them swapping allegiances immediately, but still possessing free will. And to explain that, we have some incredibly ham-fisted attempts that really have seen no refinement until recently.

We had atrocities in Hillsbrad, which even the Warchief's board calls an expansion effort- yet, we know a good portion of that situation was NOT her order or her control... in Cataclysm. But apparently Stillwater is raising undead to march against Gilneas according to the war table (pretty good for a guy we beheaded, but then again, he was in Legion too, so, I guess it didn't take.)

https://beta.wowdb.com/garrison/missions/1884-undead-rising

(Which also doesn't suggest that the Horde control Gilneas. There's another wartable mission that has Worgen marching on Hillsbrad from Gilneas, but I digress.)

After Cata, she was a divisive, but interesting character. Certainly, she had no issue murdering civilians, but she was also fighting for the existence of the Forsaken, tooth and nail. A motivation that potentially explains her actions in Legion as well, dark as they might have been.

...And then she declared lebensraum, committed genocide, and scorch-earthed the Undercity. Now, I don't think that is SO out of character as it is made out to be. She rejected any recognizable standard of morality a long time ago. But in any event, as jarring as this may or may not have been, too much has been done and confirmed to have happened to play the justification game and have it be anything other than laughable.

So yes, to her, Garrosh would be an amateur. He squandered his own forces with his racism, and restricted his actions with his code of morality, such that it was. Garrosh meant to take and occupy Ashenvale, and build a city there (Wolfheart), but never went for the throat of Teldrassil. He never seemed to move with long term purpose, an his diplomacy towards potential allies amounted to "Me strong. you follow. Be loyal." He was good at attaining raw power, but tended to fling at at the first thing that got in his way. So, to Sylanas, he was an amateur not because her atrocities are bigger and badder, but because he managed the power he had so poorly.

...and this was much longer than I intended.
11/04/2018 10:06 PMPosted by Yagarr
My favorite quote:

Because Sylvanas is not evil. In the story for her, it’s much more. She’s definitely aggressive, and she definitely believes in having power and control, but I also think that she does take seriously the representation of the Horde. She has a different perspective which is that the Horde will never be safe until the Alliance is wiped out. But, is she acting in a cruel, mustache-twirling evil way? Not really, she’s just trying to defend her people.

- Senior Producer Travis Day


OMG lolololololol
I'm actually legit offended that they have the gall to not recognize the innate evil that massacring an entire race and smirking to yourself in smug victory while hundreds of thousands of people are screaming in agony around you and children and babies are being burned to a crisp while they are helplessly trapped and can do nothing but accept their fate contains. So, let me get this straight. If I walked into the home of a family that wronged me in the past and I proceed to systematically kill their children and then them, by Blizzard's definition that doesn't make me evil, that makes me aggressive. If the cops come and ask me why I'd do such a messed up thing, I just have to say "Well they were going to do something to me sooner or later. I'm just trying to protect myself and my own family. No, I have no proof that they will most definitely attack me. Yes, I know that the father volunteers at the local church and orphanage. Hey man, I just wanted to be sure." And I would get off scott free.

Do they honestly see it that way? Because if they do, I am scared for them and the future of this game. The story is being written by a bunch of people with psycho fantasies of genocide.
For an expansion that largely reads like a confused piece of fanfiction they might want to be a bit more judicious with the word amateur.
11/05/2018 06:12 AMPosted by Calixto
I'm actually legit offended that they have the gall to not recognize the innate evil that massacring an entire race and smirking to yourself in smug victory while hundreds of thousands of people are screaming in agony around you and children and babies are being burned to a crisp while they are helplessly trapped and can do nothing but accept their fate contains. So, let me get this straight. If I walked into the home of a family that wronged me in the past and I proceed to systematically kill their children and then them, by Blizzard's definition that doesn't make me evil, that makes me aggressive. If the cops come and ask me why I'd do such a messed up thing, I just have to say "Well they were going to do something to me sooner or later. I'm just trying to protect myself and my own family. No, I have no proof that they will most definitely attack me. Yes, I know that the father volunteers at the local church and orphanage. Hey man, I just wanted to be sure." And I would get off scott free.

Do they honestly see it that way? Because if they do, I am scared for them and the future of this game. The story is being written by a bunch of people with psycho fantasies of genocide.


I mean, Calixto, they consider WC1 a morally ambiguous event, and as bad as Darnassus was it....still was nowhere near WC1 and WC2, Orgrim Doomhammer(You know the guy we built a city after?) was arguably, way, way, WAY worse then Sylvanas and let's not even talk about Blackhand or any of the old Horde.

So that confusion about morality has ALWAYS been there.
11/05/2018 05:45 AMPosted by Ayaani
11/05/2018 05:15 AMPosted by Kyveli
...Xal is freed from the dagger at the end of Crucible of Storms, so I have to think the dagger is gonna be the crux of either her fall(Heart of Y'Shaarj 2) or redemption.


If they go with the redemption arc, I'm out. She's waaaay too far gone. Genocide + death camps = no redemption possible.


Ever played Starcraft 1 and 2? Kerrigan committed way worse acts than what Sylvanas could ever hope to achieve. Turning on her allies (pretty much order 66ing them if you have seen starwars) Manipulating the protoss by corrupting their leader. Killing fleeing UED forces, Slaughtering Millions of Terrans just because she was hunting for something, experimentation on Terrans and Protoss. Corrupting a water system with the Zerg Hyperevolutionary Virus and subsequently infesting Terran Refugees, Slaughtering a Entire protoss colony world just to provent them making contact to the Golden Armada and Invading the Terran Dominion capital world of Korhal just in a act of revenge against Arcturus Mengsk. And yet after committing all this and more Blizz redeemed her and transformed her into a living god. Sylvanas hasn't done near that scope, so I wouldnt say she is beyond redemption because im sure Blizz dosen't think so either.

PS Hope I didnt come across hostile or anything just wanted to compare the pair.
11/05/2018 06:16 AMPosted by Darethy

I mean, Calixto, they consider WC1 a morally ambiguous event, and as bad as Darnassus was it....still was nowhere near WC1 and WC2, Orgrim Doomhammer(You know the guy we built a city after?) was arguably, way, way, WAY worse then Sylvanas and let's not even talk about Blackhand or any of the old Horde.

So that confusion about morality has ALWAYS been there.
Oh my God, are you kidding me? Is this a dream? Are you going to start singing again?

Lord.

Edit: Illidan would be very disappointed in me because I am most certainly not prepared.
11/05/2018 06:41 AMPosted by Calixto
11/05/2018 06:16 AMPosted by Darethy

I mean, Calixto, they consider WC1 a morally ambiguous event, and as bad as Darnassus was it....still was nowhere near WC1 and WC2, Orgrim Doomhammer(You know the guy we built a city after?) was arguably, way, way, WAY worse then Sylvanas and let's not even talk about Blackhand or any of the old Horde.

So that confusion about morality has ALWAYS been there.
Oh my God, are you kidding me? Is this a dream? Are you going to start singing again?

Lord.

Edit: Illidan would be very disappointed in me because I am most certainly not prepared.


I mean, look, Illidan got 'redeemed' and he was openly practicing slavery on a much larger scale then Windrunner, he didn't burn down Darnassus but he did some pretty awful stuff that didn't get a peep in Legion. Doomhammers...well, HAMMER, is described as the 'embodiment of justice and virtue.'

I'm sorry to say, but this and probably worse has always been a component of their mindset.
<span class="truncated">...</span>Oh my God, are you kidding me? Is this a dream? Are you going to start singing again?

Lord.

Edit: Illidan would be very disappointed in me because I am most certainly not prepared.


I mean, look, Illidan got 'redeemed' and he was openly practicing slavery on a much larger scale then Windrunner, he didn't burn down Darnassus but he did some pretty awful stuff that didn't get a peep in Legion. Doomhammers...well, HAMMER, is described as the 'embodiment of justice and virtue.'

I'm sorry to say, but this and probably worse has always been a component of their mindset.


The difference here is that while all of this is bad, Sylvanas has been committing her heinous and atrocious deeds to a PLAYER FACTION. Redeeming her would mean crapping on half of your playerbase.
11/05/2018 06:55 AMPosted by Darethy

I mean, look, Illidan got 'redeemed' and he was openly practicing slavery on a much larger scale then Windrunner, he didn't burn down Darnassus but he did some pretty awful stuff that didn't get a peep in Legion. Doomhammers...well, HAMMER, is described as the 'embodiment of justice and virtue.'

I'm sorry to say, but this and probably worse has always been a component of their mindset.
Ugh. It's also upsetting because it's very possible to come up with other reasons for this whole faction war plotline that wasn't...so messy. Things don't need to be incredibly dark all the time and if it is, at least make it make sense. God, it's like that time I was forced to read the 50 Shades books. I wanted to kill myself. I've had my fill of poorly written fanfics.

Aight, that's it. I'm going to dismantle you and then rebuild you into a glider so I can glide the !@#$ outta here.

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