is demo ever going to be good

Warlock
Are you even going to fix and buff demo warlocks or just still make them complete trash and make it so no one wants to play them?? just take them out of the game and make a new warlock spec if your going hate on demo so god dam much
They need to make HoG and tyrant instant cast

Or better yet, give back the MoP version of demo
From a PVE aspect:

I guess i'm one of the few, but i like the spec now more than ever, and play it pretty much exclusively to the others. I also am one of the top DPS is our heroic raid groups. I'm often out dpsing people 5-10 ilvls above me in other classes.

I will admit that being top dps isn't going to be achieved but sitting there just using procs and using ss for HoG. You have to pretty much have flawless execution, and be actively pumping out demons as quickly as humanly possible, AND them all out for the tyrant usage.

All that to say, that i like the flow of the spec now, and i am very competitive in output.
11/06/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Archângêl
From a PVE aspect:

I guess i'm one of the few, but i like the spec now more than ever, and play it pretty much exclusively to the others. I also am one of the top DPS is our heroic raid groups. I'm often out dpsing people 5-10 ilvls above me in other classes.

I will admit that being top dps isn't going to be achieved but sitting there just using procs and using ss for HoG. You have to pretty much have flawless execution, and be actively pumping out demons as quickly as humanly possible, AND them all out for the tyrant usage.

All that to say, that i like the flow of the spec now, and i am very competitive in output.


I really love Demo but I think my rotation could be better, do you have any tip for me?
demo is actually pretty decent and can hang in m+, it would benefit massively from a baseline interrupt(across the class please) and if felguard didnt die to goofy stuff like lightning in a bottle.
11/06/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Höhenheïm
I really love Demo but I think my rotation could be better, do you have any tip for me?

Well, its all about timing CDs together: vilefiend, stalkers, AND having as many imps out when tyrant is cast. All while trying to dodge fire. The tyrant has a short CD so you get to use it several times per fight.
- Use your demonbolt and stalkers procs to allow you to move while still putting dmg on target. Sometimes i might save a proc to use if i know i need to move soon.
- Don't overcap on shards. Ever. Big dps loss.
- Always use HoG with 3 shards. Its a significant dps loss if you only do 1-2.
- ABC = always be casting. The spec is very fluid now. There is always something to cast next, and in many cases, multiple options for what to cast next.
- Always have vilefiend/stalkers on CD. (unless you are holding off for a few seconds to line them up with tyrant usage)

TBH - the guide on Icy Veins helped me out with my rotation tremendously. I know some may be down on that site, but i still use it as a starting point. It also gives some insight as to how to excel at it.

my $ 0.02
PvE wise: Demo is freaking great. Seriously, put some time into it and you'll see it actually is pretty good.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/21037273

My raid logs, take a chill pill, I play a lot of Demo and I can comfortably pull similar boss damage on all 3 specs while absolutely crushing Mythic Zekvoz

In M+, I regularly push 13 or higher keys as all 3 specs, it all comes down to the dungeon and the affixes. This week could very well be a good Demo week. Short lived trash for burst AoE, and strong bosses to allow Demo to ramp as long as its not a super movement boss like the last boss of Motherlode

PvP wise: Well all lock specs are...meh in PvP right now so you can't really call that much of a demo exclusive issue
Demo is fairly strong now. Community views on the specs viability haven’t kept up with the buffs.

Still behind affliction and maybe destro for Uldir, but not by crippling amounts. Solidly middle of the pack.

(Granted, affliction really shines and demo isn’t very good on mythrax abs g’huun, but that’s a function of the fight design more than spec design).
11/06/2018 01:27 PMPosted by Adamswagem
and if felguard didnt die to goofy stuff like lightning in a bottle.


I swear. I have to resummon my felguard like 7-8 times in M+s and trash in Uldir. That Demon Strength > tank aggro apparently.
Demo is at the point where it's mostly encounter design hindering it. It has a few glaring weaknesses but that's allegedly how blizzard wants specs to work - the main problem is that there are other specs in the game that don't have any actual weaknesses, or have weaknesses that are all but irrelevant in a raid environment. A lot of our future performance is going to depend on how well Dazar'alor caters to us - there are a few bosses with stacked cleave which is nice, though even they will probably be better for destro/aff than for demo.
11/06/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Archângêl
11/06/2018 01:27 PMPosted by Adamswagem
and if felguard didnt die to goofy stuff like lightning in a bottle.


I swear. I have to resummon my felguard like 7-8 times in M+s and trash in Uldir. That Demon Strength > tank aggro apparently.


I like to drop a shadowfury right after DS so my pet doesn't die in seconds. They need to add a threat reduction to the skill.
Pve wise it’s pretty good rn. It’s all I use in m+. In pvp it’s good but !@#$%^- I have to try like x10 as hard as everyone else to get my burst setup. One slight mishap and my burst window is bye bye for 1.5 minutes.

However. Having HoG and stalkers baseline instant would be ideal and not at all an overkill.
11/06/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Archângêl
11/06/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Höhenheïm
I really love Demo but I think my rotation could be better, do you have any tip for me?

Well, its all about timing CDs together: vilefiend, stalkers, AND having as many imps out when tyrant is cast. All while trying to dodge fire. The tyrant has a short CD so you get to use it several times per fight.
- Use your demonbolt and stalkers procs to allow you to move while still putting dmg on target. Sometimes i might save a proc to use if i know i need to move soon.
- Don't overcap on shards. Ever. Big dps loss.
- Always use HoG with 3 shards. Its a significant dps loss if you only do 1-2.
- ABC = always be casting. The spec is very fluid now. There is always something to cast next, and in many cases, multiple options for what to cast next.
- Always have vilefiend/stalkers on CD. (unless you are holding off for a few seconds to line them up with tyrant usage)

TBH - the guide on Icy Veins helped me out with my rotation tremendously. I know some may be down on that site, but i still use it as a starting point. It also gives some insight as to how to excel at it.

my $ 0.02


thanks! I actually used what you said and I have a good day at Uldir!
Demo definately needs improvements still. I feel like demo only does good in non movement fights.

Some talents have to still be fixed, even netherportal running for 15 sec and costing 1 soul shard makes it un sustainable on damage.

From the looks of it i feel like demo should have a felguard-as their primary demon at all times. Next, yhe warlock should be able to choose between one of their current demons as a passive pet (felhunter, voidwalker,succubus,imp).

The second demon gives the warlock the command demon ability, but we lose the axe toss ability from the felguard. (This way players cant abuse using, felhunter for silence, and have 2 stuns, and fear).

I honestly feel that having 2 of our demons beating on the target would make up for movements.

Now to go a little further i think that the inner demons is too good of an ability to be a talent. Instead it should be baseline for demonology.

Instead i would throw the old grimoire of service in there for a short burst, as well as adding a new talent to replace the inner demon ability (which will become baseline).

An idea i have is this.
imp gang boss-passive-you now have an imp summoned at all times, but you lose the ability to summon your current imp.

This way we will have a felguard, an imp(that talks alot), and a choice between felhunter, voidwalker, and succubus.

Command demon abilities
(1)Imp + felhunter=shadowbomb-deals shadow damage and silence the target and all targets within 8 yards.(the imp also rides on the back of the fel hunter)

(2) imp+voidwalker=shadowflame shield-instant-deals shadowflame damage to all attackers. 10 minute buff-good for buffing tanks for extra damage.

(3) imp+succubus=temptation-seduce all targets within 15 yards for 8 sec.

I think these things are just a few things that will make up for damage in movenent fights. I also want to see the old kil'jadens cunning come back as a passive talent so that we can cast shadowbolt while moving
Some talents have to still be fixed, even netherportal running for 15 sec and costing 1 soul shard makes it un sustainable on damage.
...
I think these things are just a few things that will make up for damage in movenent fights. I also want to see the old kil'jadens cunning come back as a passive talent so that we can cast shadowbolt while moving

1. Demo locks aren't using nether portal. Sac souls outperforms this right now.

2. Demo performs well in movement fights if they know what they're doing. Most locks that try demo are spoiled by affliction and it's insta-cast DoTs. When you know demo well enough, you don't really cry about having to move alot.

Helpful Tip - Read the section "Quiet Movement" on this page: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/demonology-warlock-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities
[quote]
2. Demo performs well in movement fights if they know what they're doing. Most locks that try demo are spoiled by affliction and it's insta-cast DoTs. When you know demo well enough, you don't really cry about having to move alot.

Helpful Tip - Read the section "Quiet Movement" on this page: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/demonology-warlock-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities


Demo definitely gets hurt by movement heavy fights and I (personal opinion) definitely cry when I have to move a lot. Quiet movement isn't what I consider movement though it's when you have to constantly dodge things that inhibit you from getting a steady flow of imps out and because you don't you don't have a steady flow of procs to help you with movement either.

11/06/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Archângêl
11/06/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Höhenheïm
I really love Demo but I think my rotation could be better, do you have any tip for me?

Well, its all about timing CDs together: vilefiend, stalkers, AND having as many imps out when tyrant is cast. All while trying to dodge fire. The tyrant has a short CD so you get to use it several times per fight.
- Use your demonbolt and stalkers procs to allow you to move while still putting dmg on target. Sometimes i might save a proc to use if i know i need to move soon.
- Don't overcap on shards. Ever. Big dps loss.
- Always use HoG with 3 shards. Its a significant dps loss if you only do 1-2.
- ABC = always be casting. The spec is very fluid now. There is always something to cast next, and in many cases, multiple options for what to cast next.
- Always have vilefiend/stalkers on CD. (unless you are holding off for a few seconds to line them up with tyrant usage)

TBH - the guide on Icy Veins helped me out with my rotation tremendously. I know some may be down on that site, but i still use it as a starting point. It also gives some insight as to how to excel at it.

my $ 0.02


To add onto these things:
^:Position yourself well ahead of time, when you do have db and dogs always be thinking of where the boss will be/how tanks will set them up/how to position against mechanics.
^:If you know an ad(d) heavy phase is about to come up instead of using HoG at 3 shards start using it at 5 shards so you can quickly transition to implosion rotation when it comes.
^:Keep track of your dog cool down and make sure you have enough shards to to use them by the time they come off. People normally say to keep them off cool down but some don't realize that the time you spend getting shards to summon them again is also time lost on cool down.
^:Can't stress enough how important it is to get out 2 vilefiends up for each tyrant 1 buffed by tyrant and 1 as soon as cooldown is off because otherwise you're just delaying your tyrant
^:Delaying tyrant is a big deal for us because our big cooldown is 1.5min opposed to 3/5min like other class/specs. This means we're able to fit more big cooldowns in and missing 1 is huge.
:Review your logs afterwards, use the replay feature. See where you spend more than a second not casting, replay that window, see where you could have stood or if you could've taken advantage of portal/demonic circle.
^:If ad(d) phase is coming in 5-10 seconds save demonic str and use it then
:If you're moving and you don't have DB or DSproc or DS or some other instant cast then turn on burning rush
:Macro SB HoG Vilefiend Tyrant to cancel burning rush aura, this way you don't lose the second and a half of gcd to turn it off

Some of these are micro details that I personally pay attention to when I'm raiding but the ones with ^ are the biggest hit to your dps.
Under the current design?

Not unless it just straight up does more damage than other specs can. Which isnt impossible.

It is a lot like how Affliction used to be: by design forced into only doing decent SUSTAINED damage against a single target (cleave and aoe helps but isnt sustained, which matters a lot for a class' viability) because it needs to generate summoned demons (who are well animated DoTs, mechanics-wise)

Obviously big skill gaps attenuate this but, unless Demo accidentally obtains some niche like supermassive aoe or epic burst, higher level play will be Aff and Destro dominated I'd posit.

11/06/2018 12:16 PMPosted by Gathiz
They need to make HoG and tyrant instant cast

Or better yet, give back the MoP version of demo


yea I mean all specs have gone mechanically backwards (except I think much of Legion Aff was best with some better tuning) since then. And demonology especially.

Demonology had elements of Demon summoning attached to its fantasy but not as the basis because it's difficult to make that work. Summoning beings who for a time attack a target is awfully indirect which is inherently disadvantaged against a Mage just doing direct damage. This is a real trade-off in most practical situations but Blizzard is often slow to pick up on that.

I wont say Blizzard wont pick up on or fix this, they seem to have with Aff as it used to be plague by this problem without commensurate goodies to make up for it, but for now it is an issue.
11/08/2018 09:03 PMPosted by Tearshed
[quote]
2. Demo performs well in movement fights if they know what they're doing. Most locks that try demo are spoiled by affliction and it's insta-cast DoTs. When you know demo well enough, you don't really cry about having to move alot.

Helpful Tip - Read the section "Quiet Movement" on this page: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/demonology-warlock-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities


Demo definitely gets hurt by movement heavy fights and I (personal opinion) definitely cry when I have to move a lot. Quiet movement isn't what I consider movement though it's when you have to constantly dodge things that inhibit you from getting a steady flow of imps out and because you don't you don't have a steady flow of procs to help you with movement either.

11/06/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Archângêl
...
Well, its all about timing CDs together: vilefiend, stalkers, AND having as many imps out when tyrant is cast. All while trying to dodge fire. The tyrant has a short CD so you get to use it several times per fight.
- Use your demonbolt and stalkers procs to allow you to move while still putting dmg on target. Sometimes i might save a proc to use if i know i need to move soon.
- Don't overcap on shards. Ever. Big dps loss.
- Always use HoG with 3 shards. Its a significant dps loss if you only do 1-2.
- ABC = always be casting. The spec is very fluid now. There is always something to cast next, and in many cases, multiple options for what to cast next.
- Always have vilefiend/stalkers on CD. (unless you are holding off for a few seconds to line them up with tyrant usage)

TBH - the guide on Icy Veins helped me out with my rotation tremendously. I know some may be down on that site, but i still use it as a starting point. It also gives some insight as to how to excel at it.

my $ 0.02


To add onto these things:
^:Position yourself well ahead of time, when you do have db and dogs always be thinking of where the boss will be/how tanks will set them up/how to position against mechanics.
^:If you know an ad(d) heavy phase is about to come up instead of using HoG at 3 shards start using it at 5 shards so you can quickly transition to implosion rotation when it comes.
^:Keep track of your dog cool down and make sure you have enough shards to to use them by the time they come off. People normally say to keep them off cool down but some don't realize that the time you spend getting shards to summon them again is also time lost on cool down.
^:Can't stress enough how important it is to get out 2 vilefiends up for each tyrant 1 buffed by tyrant and 1 as soon as cooldown is off because otherwise you're just delaying your tyrant
^:Delaying tyrant is a big deal for us because our big cooldown is 1.5min opposed to 3/5min like other class/specs. This means we're able to fit more big cooldowns in and missing 1 is huge.
:Review your logs afterwards, use the replay feature. See where you spend more than a second not casting, replay that window, see where you could have stood or if you could've taken advantage of portal/demonic circle.
^:If ad(d) phase is coming in 5-10 seconds save demonic str and use it then
:If you're moving and you don't have DB or DSproc or DS or some other instant cast then turn on burning rush
:Macro SB HoG Vilefiend Tyrant to cancel burning rush aura, this way you don't lose the second and a half of gcd to turn it off

Some of these are micro details that I personally pay attention to when I'm raiding but the ones with ^ are the biggest hit to your dps.


All very good stuff not mentioned elsewhere and all has a very large impact because of the planning and execution needed to play demo successfully.

It's because of this that the spec remains undertuned in my opinion because I know of no other DPS spec melee or ranged that has the nuance that this has. It should be clear cut highest damage possible if executed well. Certainly more than Affliction.
I think the problem with demo is that it’s niche (static ST and stacked sustain aoe) is relatively rare in the current meta (as well as less fun than other niches imo). It’s still a solid spec but just hasn’t seen it’s day in the sun quite yet when it’s overshadowed by affliction and destro
11/06/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Archângêl
From a PVE aspect:

I guess i'm one of the few, but i like the spec now more than ever, and play it pretty much exclusively to the others. I also am one of the top DPS is our heroic raid groups. I'm often out dpsing people 5-10 ilvls above me in other classes.

I will admit that being top dps isn't going to be achieved but sitting there just using procs and using ss for HoG. You have to pretty much have flawless execution, and be actively pumping out demons as quickly as humanly possible, AND them all out for the tyrant usage.

All that to say, that i like the flow of the spec now, and i am very competitive in output.


I too really enjoy the spec, much more than destro and especially aff. I also think it has a lot of potential and I'm interested to see where they take it, though it will never compare with Meta dancing.

I did take the time to look at your logs though to see what you meant by out dpsing people of higher ilevels, given that I enjoy the spec a lot and I'm always curious to see how other demo locks play and perform, but I'm not sure your claim is the most accurate or best representation for what is in the normal or expected ranges. The general trend is that the lower the parses, the better overall demo tends to perform, but as the parses get higher, you steadily see demo moving from around the middle of the pack to being one of the bottom ranked specs in heroic content.

I myself love playing demo and I happen to be able to do well with it, but at the same time I am aware of its shortcomings, but even still it is not a spec that is dead or cant be played. It doesn't have as high of a ceiling as the other two warlock specs or many other dps specs in general, partially due to fight design in this raid tier, but it is still a viable spec to play on most fights. I don't think it can quite compete with aff or destro on G'huun, mythrax, and is bugged on mother.

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