is demo ever going to be good

Warlock
11/06/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Archângêl
11/06/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Höhenheïm
I really love Demo but I think my rotation could be better, do you have any tip for me?

Well, its all about timing CDs together: vilefiend, stalkers, AND having as many imps out when tyrant is cast.


Your statement about having to have out as many imps as possible when casting tyrant isn't really accurate, as in the normal rotation, you should never really be holding off on tyrant if at all possible, with the only exceptions being a few seconds to line up your longer cd demons with it. So its not really anything to have to worry about or pay attention to at all in the normal rotation as you should have a pretty consistent number of imps out due to imps spawning and despawning at a consistent rate.

Where it does matter is in the opener, and you should never be holding tyrent to try and spawn more imps. As you are losing out on a huge amount of damage due to the interaction of tyrant with your long cd demons, your damage procs, your prepot, and sometimes lust. There is a common misconception with how imps work, extending the duration of an imp by 15 seconds does nothing as the imp will always despawn when its energy runs out. A normal imp has enough energy for 5 casts before it runs out of energy and despawns. However, while demonic tyrant is active, imp energy does not deplete. Basically while demonic tyrant is up no imps will despawn until after he expires, and then they will only be around for up to 5 casts afterwords and they run out of energy.

Basically in your opener you will lose out on a lot of dps if you hold tyrant to spawn imps and cast him right when your longer cd demons are about to expire, as you are not stacking damage modifies like procs and and prepots together with some of your largest damage per cast abilities.
11/07/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Chåoslord
Now to go a little further i think that the inner demons is too good of an ability to be a talent. Instead it should be baseline for demonology.


Inner demons is not too good of an ability to be a talent. It's a fun and interesting ability and has some synergy with other talents, but it is not too good that its the only option. I personally prefer the Grim felguard and you will find a healthy mix of both talents used.

11/07/2018 07:29 AMPosted by Archângêl
Helpful Tip - Read the section "Quiet Movement" on this page: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/demonology-warlock-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities


Their statement "... Summon Demonic Tyrant to extend and empower, which will greatly transform the effectiveness of this cooldown. Experienced players will be able to slightly manipulate the effect of other cooldowns, such as Summon Vilefiend or Grimoire: Felguard, by extending their effects right before they would normally expire." Is just plain wrong and uses a poor understanding of how demonic tyrant interacts with those demons. There is no point in waiting till the almost expire, as demonic tyrant increases their current duration by an additional 15 seconds. The time they have left doesn't matter as they will last their normal amount of time +15 seconds no matter what (excluding imps). This is even more critical if you have supreme commander as a trait because you are loosing out on the length of time between when you initially summon your CD based demons and your summon of demonic tyrant where you will have the int buff ~8-12 seconds.

Also their open is totally wrong.
They have it listed as:
1) Pre pot
2) Precast DB
3) Demonic Strength
4) Vile Fiend
5) Call Dread Salkers
6) Grim Felguard
7) Cast DB (if you have DC)
8) Cast HoG
9) Summon Demonic Tyrant

This is waiting way too long to summon demonic tyrant and you are losing out on up time of prepot with demonic tyrant buff and procs.

Here is the opener I use
1) Pre pot ~4-5 sec
2) Precast DB
3) Use on use haste trinket
4) Summon Dread Stalkers
5) Summon Vile Fiend
6) Grim Felguard - if you use it
7) Summon Demonic Tyrant
8) go into SB and HoG rotation

Changes a bit if your not using Grim Felguard but conseptually should be the same.

I use my trinket first right after DB cast due to GCD and the fact it builds haste slowly. I want it to start ramping up for getting to my tyrant and SB HoG phase as fast as possible. Use summon Dread Stalkers first as they are the weakest of your cd based demons and using them here let you summon a second set that will use the dread bite with the 15% damage buff from tyrant. Then Vile Fiend as its another cast time spell followed by the instant cast of Grim Felguard. It helps keep everything smooth and they should be arriving at the boss right as your summoning/summoned tyrant. You Don't want to wait on tyrant for reasons stated above, but also because you dont want a huge gap between when Vile Fiend and demonic tyrant come off CD.
With the new Ptr Changes adding damage to felguard and imps (which I assume includes imps from HoG), Demo damage will be a little more consistent and perhaps a tad better..

Thoughts on this?
11/10/2018 08:07 AMPosted by Menemies
With the new Ptr Changes adding damage to felguard and imps (which I assume includes imps from HoG), Demo damage will be a little more consistent and perhaps a tad better..

Thoughts on this?


It's nice the talent is no longer dead, but it doesn't address any real issues people have. If a spec is going to be a turret with low target swapping and high ramp up, it needs to do something spectacularly.

Currently it's being measured as "sometimes its dps is as good as Aff's," which makes it meh because Aff at least has massive single target burst.
11/10/2018 02:56 AMPosted by Irsemployee

Also their open is totally wrong.
They have it listed as:
1) Pre pot
2) Precast DB
3) Demonic Strength
4) Vile Fiend
5) Call Dread Salkers
6) Grim Felguard
7) Cast DB (if you have DC)
8) Cast HoG
9) Summon Demonic Tyrant

This is waiting way too long to summon demonic tyrant and you are losing out on up time of prepot with demonic tyrant buff and procs.

Here is the opener I use
1) Pre pot ~4-5 sec
2) Precast DB
3) Use on use haste trinket
4) Summon Dread Stalkers
5) Summon Vile Fiend
6) Grim Felguard - if you use it
7) Summon Demonic Tyrant
8) go into SB and HoG rotation

Changes a bit if your not using Grim Felguard but conseptually should be the same.

I use my trinket first right after DB cast due to GCD and the fact it builds haste slowly. I want it to start ramping up for getting to my tyrant and SB HoG phase as fast as possible. Use summon Dread Stalkers first as they are the weakest of your cd based demons and using them here let you summon a second set that will use the dread bite with the 15% damage buff from tyrant. Then Vile Fiend as its another cast time spell followed by the instant cast of Grim Felguard. It helps keep everything smooth and they should be arriving at the boss right as your summoning/summoned tyrant. You Don't want to wait on tyrant for reasons stated above, but also because you dont want a huge gap between when Vile Fiend and demonic tyrant come off CD.


I'm not sure if your haste works out for you properly that you can do this but I just looked at my cooldowns/casttimes etc and did the math with your rotation and gave a .1 (this is a little too high imo especially for an opener where all you're focused on is dps) second lag in between skills:

HoG has 1.3;
SB, DS, VF, DT have 1.7;
DB has 3.9 seconds cast times
1.3 seconds GCD

Seconds: Spell beginning to cast
0 Prepot
.1 DB
4.1 Haste trink
4.2 DS (Cool down starts at 5.9 seconds in)
6.0 VF
7.8 FG (I don't use this but put it here for the sake of whoever does use it and because it helps your case more)
9.2 DT (Is active until 25.9 seconds in)
SB Hog Filler
25.9 DS (Assuming you are waiting to cast this or SB/HoG end cast lines up with DS cool down off)

So as you can see here, by the time you are able to cast your second set of DS, your Tyrant has already gone MIA and so the 15% buff won't affect their bite. I included Felguard because it would delay summoning Tyrant and give time for DS cool down to run out but it doesn't look like many demolocks use Felguard either.

As for why many openers include the SB->HoG->DT, *I think* it's because by the time you summon Tyrant after HoG your imps have yet to cast and so they still have the full 5 casts after Tyrant goes MIA and now you are able to have more imps up during your Tyrant duration without affecting anything else besides the 3 seconds lost of prepot. And having more imps included outweigh the advantages of having VF and DS inside prepot DT stacked duration.

Also the VF comes first for me for a few reasons:
-It's higher dmg than DS and so you want more of it in the prepot/DT stack (You can check this our by summoning DS first then VF and VF will still do more dmg at the time DS go away)
-It's (un)likely that by the time VF comes off cooldown you're going to be waiting a little bit due to either no resources or because you're mid cast or because you just didn't see it and this cascades into holding off on DT as well which is not good as I explained in a prev post.
Being long cooldowns there's a chance for VF/DT to be in a squeeze moment as the fight is ending opposed to DS with shorter cooldowns where it'll be squeezed nonetheless.

Let me know if I did any of the math wrong. I tested this out on the dummy too and what I said was also my experience there.
11/10/2018 08:07 AMPosted by Menemies
With the new Ptr Changes adding damage to felguard and imps (which I assume includes imps from HoG), Demo damage will be a little more consistent and perhaps a tad better..

Thoughts on this?


The damage buff is compensatory for the double dipping of haste that pets were doing. It is yet to be seen exactly how much of a buff it is.
11/10/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Tragik
11/10/2018 08:07 AMPosted by Menemies
With the new Ptr Changes adding damage to felguard and imps (which I assume includes imps from HoG), Demo damage will be a little more consistent and perhaps a tad better..

Thoughts on this?


The damage buff is compensatory for the double dipping of haste that pets were doing. It is yet to be seen exactly how much of a buff it is.


Ahh so literally might as well have gotten nothing? hahahahahakillmehahaha
11/06/2018 12:16 PMPosted by Gathiz
Or better yet, give back the MoP version of demo


I would be so happy if they did this but i think we got a better chance of classic wow having more than 250k active players after 3months.

Rip Meta Demo.
Like i said before demos biggest issue is being stationary for fights. I honestly believe that casters should be doing a ton more damage than melee because casters can be silenced and have to stand still to deal damage. A melee can bash and deal damage even while running sround.
Question - as a relatively fresh 120 who is in the process of gearing up...does the spec start to scale and feel better once you get to a certain level of haste? I really like the aesthetics and concept of the spec...but it tends to feel kinda slow and clunky at the moment.
11/11/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Exhumator
Question - as a relatively fresh 120 who is in the process of gearing up...does the spec start to scale and feel better once you get to a certain level of haste? I really like the aesthetics and concept of the spec...but it tends to feel kinda slow and clunky at the moment.


We aren't nearly as reliant on haste as we were in Legion. It's still our best stat, to be sure, but it's no longer basically mandatory to make the spec work. I only have around 10% haste (isn't RNG loot fun) and the spec still feels fine. Having more procs of things like overwhelming power as you get more gear and level up your azerite makes it feel a lot better, too.
11/10/2018 10:12 AMPosted by Tearshed

Let me know if I did any of the math wrong. I tested this out on the dummy too and what I said was also my experience there.


You are in fact correct. I hadn't looked at the logs for my opener in a few weeks, but the increase in gear and subsequent haste increases from the weekly buff has made it so that my second call dread stalkers misses out on Tyrants 15% by about 1 gcd - 2 seconds.

My reasoning to prioritize tyrant with your stronger demons comes down to the damage they do per hit, Along with when using Grim felguard you would need 2 SB casts before you would have 3 SS for a HoG before Tyrant. I don't think my opener is best for those not running Grim Felguard and agree with poping off a HoG before.

This might change a bit as they are adjusting the SP scaling of your other demons and imps in 8.1, but before this, the 900 int from the prepot effected your felguard, grim felguard, viel fiend, and DS more than 3 Imps getting off 1 sometimes 2 casts of fireball. And not to mention the time wasted in casting 2 SB to then cast a HoG with Grim Fel build is just too much lost time.

I'll have to look at my haste values in raid this week and try to see if I should cast 1 or 2 SB before poping tyrant to line up CD with it. And it might only be worth it to use HoG before Tyrant if you get a proc to make CD 1 ss and instant as the timing for the second set will be off.

As for using VF or DS first, It was mostly for that dreadbite under tyrant to line up correctly. But given how my haste has gone up so much I might have to look into it again. But if my goal is to get a second dreadbite right before tyrant expires while maximizing the overlap of prepot and tyrant on the CD demons, I would still do the same, as that is still a 1 attack difference roughly for each pet.

And I always chose Grim FG as last because it would give me a second while GC was coming up to make sure I was ready to go into a tyrant phase and could move just a bit with the pull.
11/06/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Archângêl
From a PVE aspect:

I guess i'm one of the few, but i like the spec now more than ever, and play it pretty much exclusively to the others. I also am one of the top DPS is our heroic raid groups. I'm often out dpsing people 5-10 ilvls above me in other classes.

I will admit that being top dps isn't going to be achieved but sitting there just using procs and using ss for HoG. You have to pretty much have flawless execution, and be actively pumping out demons as quickly as humanly possible, AND them all out for the tyrant usage.

All that to say, that i like the flow of the spec now, and i am very competitive in output.


You're not alone. I prefer the spec now than when meta was a thing. But I know a lot of people loved it in MoP and earlier.

However if someone can play demo at a high level and also aff at a high level with minimal flaws, they aff lock will bring more damage every time just due to how the specs are balanced and the fights right now.

Aff and destro just fill roles and do much better on most fights than demo which sucks but if you aren't in a cutting edge guild I don't think it really matters all that much as long as you're pulling your weight.
It's good now after getting buffed like 6 times, but everyone gave up on it since it was so bad in early BFA that the only people left playing it aren't very good at it. Additionally, you won't get into higher keys with it because again, all people know is that demo is bad.

It's comparable or stronger than Affliction now in many places (particularly AOE) but not enough to make good players use it, which means the logs will be much worse and the community perception of it will remain that it's terrible.

Side note: it's not as crippled by movement as people think. If you build for strong demonbolts with Shadow's Bite, you only lose ~30% of your damage if you literally never cast a shadowbolt or HoG (only hard casts are dreads, vilefiend, tyrant). So in a more realistic scenario you should only see a 10-15% difference in DPS when you have heavy movement vs being able to stand still.
Spread damage is the bane of Demo's existence, making it struggle on Mythrax and G'huun; while also being straight up bugged on Taloc and MOTHER.

At a disadvantage for half of Uldir while the other two specs can pop off on those fights. Siege of Dazar'alor will hopefully be better suited for Demo.

Its damage is pretty hefty and it does really well in M+, just an unfortunate start that it had this raid tier.
11/10/2018 02:56 AMPosted by Irsemployee
Their statement "... Summon Demonic Tyrant to extend and empower, which will greatly transform the effectiveness of this cooldown. Experienced players will be able to slightly manipulate the effect of other cooldowns, such as Summon Vilefiend or Grimoire: Felguard, by extending their effects right before they would normally expire." Is just plain wrong and uses a poor understanding of how demonic tyrant interacts with those demons. There is no point in waiting till the almost expire, as demonic tyrant increases their current duration by an additional 15 seconds.

There actually is a VERY valid point the using tyrant before just they despawn. This statement means that you are letting the vilefiend/stalkers/fg do extra damage longer before you use tyrant (not immediately). You definitely don't want them to despawn b4 u use tyrant, but experienced players will call them out a little earlier so that just before they despawn, tyrant will come off CD, and then you use the big ol' demon. This increases the uptime of the VF/DS/FG essentially, but it takes practice on the timing.

To get this timing down, I suggest a WA that tracks the VF/DS uptime. I use bars that i watch to get out as many extra SBs/HoGs before i need to cast tyrant. usually its only about 1-2.
11/10/2018 01:11 AMPosted by Irsemployee
11/06/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Archângêl
...
Well, its all about timing CDs together: vilefiend, stalkers, AND having as many imps out when tyrant is cast.


Your statement about having to have out as many imps as possible when casting tyrant isn't really accurate, as in the normal rotation, you should never really be holding off on tyrant if at all possible, with the only exceptions being a few seconds to line up your longer cd demons with it. So its not really anything to have to worry about or pay attention to at all in the normal rotation as you should have a pretty consistent number of imps out due to imps spawning and despawning at a consistent rate.

My info was sort of generic about the playstyle in general. I was not specifically taking about the moments leading up to a tyrant usage. You definitely don't want to hold off tyrant unless you're trying to get out the other smaller demon CDs first.

I would, however, add an opinion - that if you only have like 1 imp out, and you're about to use tyrant, I would cast at least one more HoG first. I'm not going to hold off tyrant though to try to get 6 more imps, and lose the impowered VF/DS, but i would imagine that getting at least 3 more imps out will make tyrant a bit more optimized.

I use a WA that tells me how many of each demon i have out at once, and timers for how much longer the VF/DS will be alive for before they will despawn.

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