Khadgar

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11/13/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Mustakraken
And the story has already answered WHY.
11/13/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Mustakraken
There's no debate to be had. The answer is simple and has already been given. You're just wringing your hands and wondering why Dadghar isn't showing up to save the Alliance.
Alright, gimme a sec, I gotta lean back exasperated in my chair and rub my face for a minute...

Okay, we're good.

Everyone here knows where Khadgar is right now. We know his reasons for being there right now. The debate is WHY ARE THOSE HIS REASONS. Why has nothing changed in the face of these catastrophes. It FEELS like Khadgar should get involved. His reasons were given, we're discussing the validity of them, and how much sense they make. Which is a good debate to be had. It's no different than debates asking where Thrall is - also a good one to have.
Sylvanas is a villain, though. She’s causing enormous, direct harm to heroes and defenders of Azeroth.

The Night Elves fought the Legion long before anyone and have fought to protect Azeroth since they’ve been around. She killed hundreds or more of them and destroyed a World Tree that blessed by a Dragon Aspect.

Gallywix and his Goblins are ripping Azerite wounds apart for Azeroth’s power, which apparently causes more harm and upsets the elements, according to WQ text.

Khadgar’s spent his life protecting Azeroth. He was going to be the Guardian. Would the Guardian stand idle while these events unfolded? I would say no.

He owes nothing to Sylvanas. Her plan is to literally raze every city and raise their citizens into undeath. It’s asinine to think Khadgar wouldn’t be trying to stop her.
Okay, let me rephrase then.

When Khadgar can intervene without killing any heroes from either faction it would make sense for him to intervene.

Thus far the plot has not presented a possibility where he would both be well enough informed (what with being in Karazhan) and able to act in such a way that it wouldn;t result in the likely deaths of one side or the others heroes.

Also note, Khadgar can;t spend every waking hour baby-sitting the horde and Alliance and keeping them from tearing into each other AND research a way to heal Azeroth at the same time.

Does that make sense?

I'm not saying it's good writing, but it's the best we have at the moment.
I understand what you’re saying but it’s so frustrating. The Kirin Tor and Ebon Blade should not be sidelined. It makes it hard to be immersed in the story.

It’s just unfortunate that so many strong “Alliance” heroes are consistently sidelined for the sake of power level. Would be nice if they introduced some powerful new Horde heroes to balance things out and allow for more storytelling that makes sense. They do not develop enough characters.
11/13/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Zarles
I understand what you’re saying but it’s so frustrating. The Kirin Tor and Ebon Blade should not be sidelined. It makes it hard to be immersed in the story.

Pretty sure the logic there is to keep the neutral figures and factions on the sidelines so they can remain neutral in future expansions.

It'd be even harder to remain immersed in the story if, say, the Kirin Tor decided to swear vengeance against the Horde and expelled all their Horde members one expansion and then served as quest givers for the Horde in the next expansion.

That was why Jaina got booted from leading the Kirin Tor in favor of Khadgar in Legion and it still felt weird to be in Dalaran again.

11/13/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Zarles
It’s just unfortunate that so many strong “Alliance” heroes are consistently sidelined for the sake of power level. Would be nice if they introduced some powerful new Horde heroes to balance things out and allow for more storytelling that makes sense. They do not develop enough characters.

Mhmm, very much agreed. Unfortunately 'development' for a Horde character is usually a death flag. Seems the policy is to keep the horde weak right up until they need them to be the villains for an expansion.
11/13/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Mustakraken
but the Horde are still their enemies and they are still carrying out her orders willingly.


The Tauren and Blood Elves are already pissed. Blood elf king guy has already said Sylvanas has gotten too close to acting like the Litch King in the heritage armour quest.

Bain might actually do something.. but he definitely isn't happy about it.

This plan won't last.
11/13/2018 06:56 PMPosted by Zarles
Where is he? How can he remain neutral after the Burning of Teldrassil? This is some bad writing.

The Kirin Tor should be in this fight, smiting the heck outta Forsaken and Goblins, at the very least.


You do know that a good deal of the Kirin Tor is Horde, right?
11/13/2018 08:41 PMPosted by Christopher
Bain might actually do something..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVFd46qABi0
He can remain neutral because he actually has his head screwed on straight enough to understand that there are bigger things at stake here than a faction war. And I love him for it.
With the legion gone , Khadgar would side with the alliance. I am also sure that he could destroy Sylvannas pretty quick. But again the writers are the ones keeping strong alliance heroes from showing up. We all know heroes that are still out there, yet they do nothing. Right now since we see that Bolvar, Bwsoombi and Ayir all have ire for Sylvannas. You would think that they would be more motivated in putting an end to her. But again the writers. One should start questioning if the writers are loosing there crediability to tell meaningful lore that doesn't have holes in it. Lore that actually doesn't skip over the lore that the founders put in place. Like the raising of those attached to elune and the dream. It shouldn't be possible but there ignoring it and doing it anyway. It's the same ideals that happened with some of the new starwars films. Trying to change things to fit there idea.

The writers need to start paying attention. The darkshore incident has now caused more players to pay attention to the ptr more then ever. With how bfa is being received and players voicing there concerns. They might want to rethink there own view otherwise they risk loosing players in more then just subscriptions. Talking about book sales and other online transactions. Blizzcon wasn't a sucess.
11/13/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Pellex
He can remain neutral because he actually has his head screwed on straight enough to understand that there are bigger things at stake here than a faction war. And I love him for it.

That's what makes his complete absence so odd. The world is at stake again and escalation between factions is, in a very real and immediate way, contributing to if not expediting the death of Azeroth.

Where is he? Why isn't he trying to deescalate the situation?

It was comical the way he basically peaced out to allow for Faction Pride.
11/13/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Rhuna
11/13/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Pellex
He can remain neutral because he actually has his head screwed on straight enough to understand that there are bigger things at stake here than a faction war. And I love him for it.

That's what makes his complete absence so odd. The world is at stake again and escalation between factions is, in a very real and immediate way, contributing to if not expediting the death of Azeroth.

Where is he? Why isn't he trying to deescalate the situation?

It was comical the way he basically peaced out to allow for Faction Pride.


They just have him fly away instead of sticking around. Also look at all the heroes in the embassy within stormwind. You don't see them adding in Moria or the darkirons into the story. Alleria makes a couple appearances in the battle for lorderon then thats it. Velen is in stormwind to. You only see them use Anduin, Genn and Proudmoores. When Anduin makes his speech you see that only the stormwind human numbers are the ones taking a toll in that cinematic. Yet they leave out the gnomes, dwarves, dranei, lightforged, voidelves, etc Then they argue that Anduin has to say that the Alliance numbers are down. There making it seem like the alliance is small in numbers. Yet there are so many heroes and factions that are not used in the story. Seems like cheap story/development to be honest.
Because once you go neutral, you become immune to logic and the pleas of your former faction, even if they get attacked and massacred by an obviously evil force.

Unless you're Horde-Neutral, that is. In which case you claim neutrality while still acting on behalf and within the interests of the Horde.
I think it demonstrates a big problem with the story that several alliance things, whether they are characters or weapons, need to be practically ignored for this plot to work at all.

Also Iva, which characters are you referring to with the horde neutral comment? The only ones I can think of are Thrall...and maybe Liadrin? The alliance has had the vast majority of neutral characters, for better or worse. And plenty of them have returned to the alliance as well, such as Alleria, Turalyon, Malfurion, and Tyrande from last expansion.
Maybe he will show up when there is an enemy to deal with that ARE NOT the heroes he has sworn not to attack.

(...)

There's no debate to be had. The answer is simple and has already been given. You're just wringing your hands and wondering why Dadghar isn't showing up to save the Alliance.


Not my thread, but... you Horde-aligned posters keep doing this. You set up a strawman of a crying Alliance-aligned poster, and debate that rather than what people are actually saying. Nobody here has said Khadgar should 'save the Alliance'. They are wondering where he is. That is all.

For my part, as someone who rarely posts, I do find it weird. I don't care if he just gets shanked by Garona within five minutes of showing up. I don't care if he says he wants to intervene, but is somehow stopped from doing so and that is tearing him apart. But...

Something. Anything.

The thing is, it's not that (most, at least) Alliance-aligned people want to be 'saved' by Khadgar. The thing is, his neutrality... damages the character. Badly.

Khadgar's the character who stepped up against the first Horde invasion. Who fought it back to the Dark Portal, and went beyond it to keep Azeroth safe. An uncompromising figure who would do everything in his power to save lives, as we saw from how he made Dalaran neutral again despite the Horde's transgressions, to save the world together.

That was cool. That is a good character.

But...

Now that character no longer exists. He was not fighting to avenge and protect, like the other Sons of Lothar. He was just fighting because he dislikes Fel Magic. The Horde had cut a swath through a few zones westward, and destroyed a kingdom. The SAME THING Sylvanas has done from Orgrimmar to Teldrasil was done from the Swamp of Sorrows to Stormwind. Sylvanas' Horde is literally sitting at Just As Bad As Blackhand's. But they are not using fel magic, so Khadgar does not care.

Bluntly, this makes Khadgar into an amoral !@#$%^- who cares nothing for the lives of people in Azeroth, only for the stones in it.

Someone who will just shrug when he hears a plurality of the forces involved in stopping the Legion - the Night Elves, who were there as druids in Val'sharah, as Demon Hunters, as Wardens... - have just been all but destroyed. But the people who destroyed them were not using fel magic.

And that is the only thing Khadgar cares about.

I liked old Khadgar, he cared about people. New Khadgar's an *!@#$%^ who would play the lyre as the world burns, as long as the people weren't using green fire to do it.

They can still salvage the character, but his silence in the matter does damage his long-term integrity. It took them quite a long time for Malfurion to stop being despised by the Night Elf playerbase, to the point where even characters in-story hated him (like Leyara) and people were on their side, not Furion's.

11/13/2018 10:28 PMPosted by Verlius
Also Iva, which characters are you referring to with the horde neutral comment? The only ones I can think of are Thrall...and maybe Liadrin? The alliance has had the vast majority of neutral characters, for better or worse. And plenty of them have returned to the alliance as well, such as Alleria, Turalyon, Malfurion, and Tyrande from last expansion.


Not Iva, but. Thrall came back to aid the Horde in the siege of Orgrimmar, keeping Vol'jin in the Horde and aiding his revolution, and helped the Horde navigate into Draenor, seeking the aid of the Frostwolves and settling in the Horde. Khadgar did not care to aid the Alliance.

Thrall convinced the Darkspears to remain in the Horde under Garrosh.
Khadgar convinced the Kirin Tor to break from the Alliance under Jaina.

That's a... very big difference in how neutrality works.
Perhaps Blizz thought rehashing the story of "Neutral Kirin Tor Mage that has strong ties to the Alliance but whom is friends with the Horde abandons neutrality to finger wag at the Horde PC for things that are out of their control" would have made this expansion too much like MoP. *slaps BFA* This baby can only hold ONE retread.
11/13/2018 06:56 PMPosted by Zarles
Where is he? How can he remain neutral after the Burning of Teldrassil?
Because it's not related to the end of the world, so he doesn't give a ****.
11/13/2018 07:31 PMPosted by Grandblade
The discussion is about why Teldrassil wasn't enough to change that.
It's like like the tree does anything to protect the planet.

It's a city getting destroyed in a petty political conflict. He's concerned with more important things than that.
11/13/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Rhuna
11/13/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Pellex
He can remain neutral because he actually has his head screwed on straight enough to understand that there are bigger things at stake here than a faction war. And I love him for it.

That's what makes his complete absence so odd. The world is at stake again and escalation between factions is, in a very real and immediate way, contributing to if not expediting the death of Azeroth.

Where is he? Why isn't he trying to deescalate the situation?

He's in Karazhan, consulting Medivh and looking through ancient texts to find a way to heal the world.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Speaker%27s_Perspective_(Horde)
https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Speaker%27s_Perspective_(Alliance)

***

Archmage Khadgar says: It seems our victory on Argus was a hollow one. With his final blow, Sargeras has done much more than bury his blade in the heart of our world.

Archmage Khadgar says: I had hoped that after the war against the Legion, the people of Azeroth would build a new future together. But now the unity we forged has been shattered.

Archmage Khadgar says: As the life essence of Azeroth bleeds out, the leaders of the Alliance and Horde scramble to claim it as a resource. Blades are drawn, and the tides of war are rising once again.

Archmage Khadgar says: But I will not take up arms against heroes on either side. Not after all we've been through.

Archmage Khadgar says: Instead, I will go to Karazhan and confer with my old mentor, Medivh. Perhaps somewhere in his ancient texts lies the knowledge needed to heal this world.

Archmage Khadgar says: I had best be going. Until next we meet... fare well, champion.

Khadgar transforms into a raven and flies out.

***

It's also worth noting that he left before the War of Thorns started. For all we know, he's been in Medivh's pocket dimension all this time and hasn't even heard about the fighting.
11/13/2018 07:59 PMPosted by Zarles
It’s asinine to think Khadgar wouldn’t be trying to stop her.


Blizzard is asinine.

11/13/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Pellex
He can remain neutral because he actually has his head screwed on straight enough to understand that there are bigger things at stake here than a faction war. And I love him for it.


What is the point in saving the world if his friends are dead and raised by the Horde?
11/14/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Arlifrex
11/13/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Pellex
He can remain neutral because he actually has his head screwed on straight enough to understand that there are bigger things at stake here than a faction war. And I love him for it.


What is the point in saving the world if his friends are dead and raised by the Horde?

Blizzard's very vague about timelines. We don't know how long Azeroth has, versus how long a war would take.

But it's also worth noting that he left before the War of Thorns started. For all we know, he's been in Medivh's pocket dimension all this time and hasn't even heard about the fighting.

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