Khadgar

Story Forum
Like the Vindicaar being absent, Khadgar’s neutrality is a pathetic story turn at best.

“Lmao all my horde friends are dicks and gleefully enacting genocide against an entire people AND helping spread blight. BuT Im TrYiNg To HeAl ThE wOrLd” is a crappy excuse considering the Horde keep damaging it horrendously.

Once again alliance characters are hideously incompetent and grossly negligent while the Horde by and large is bipolar between “Yeah we’re gruff but we help” to “oh look at the time, it’s [commit crimes against life] o’clock!”. This expansion and everything about it is tiresome.
11/14/2018 07:26 AMPosted by Eldrethana
Like the Vindicaar being absent, Khadgar’s neutrality is a pathetic story turn at best.

“Lmao all my horde friends are dicks and gleefully enacting genocide against an entire people AND helping spread blight. BuT Im TrYiNg To HeAl ThE wOrLd” is a crappy excuse considering the Horde keep damaging it horrendously.

He left before the fighting even started. (The Silithus quests, during which Khadgar leaves, went live before the start of the WoT.) We don't even know if he's heard about the war.
11/14/2018 07:26 AMPosted by Eldrethana
“Lmao all my horde friends are dicks and gleefully enacting genocide against an entire people AND helping spread blight. BuT Im TrYiNg To HeAl ThE wOrLd” is a crappy excuse considering the Horde keep damaging it horrendously.
It's actually not. The planet blowing up is actually a REALLY GOOD EXCUSE to not care about a petty faction conflict.
11/14/2018 07:36 AMPosted by Vespero
11/14/2018 07:26 AMPosted by Eldrethana
“Lmao all my horde friends are dicks and gleefully enacting genocide against an entire people AND helping spread blight. BuT Im TrYiNg To HeAl ThE wOrLd” is a crappy excuse considering the Horde keep damaging it horrendously.
It's actually not. The planet blowing up is actually a REALLY GOOD EXCUSE to not care about a petty faction conflict.


Burning a city filled with people is petty conflict?
11/14/2018 07:38 AMPosted by Arlifrex
Burning a city filled with people is petty conflict?

Compared to the World Soul of the planet dying? Yes, it is. It's all a question of scope.

None of us should be having a faction war at a time like this. We should all be working with Khadgar (and Magni)--not the other way around.

And yes, I know Sylvanas struck first, much as I hate that fact. She shouldn't have done that either. But just because she did it, that doesn't mean the people with the best chance of figuring out how to heal Azeroth should drop everything and go fight her. Sorry. It just doesn't. IMHO, of course.
11/14/2018 07:39 AMPosted by Pellex
11/14/2018 07:38 AMPosted by Arlifrex
Burning a city filled with people is petty conflict?

Compared to the World Soul of the planet dying? Yes, it is. It's all a question of scope.


While from an out of universe perspective we know the Alliance must survive, from an in universe perspective? It matters not the world soul surviving if all the Alliance races are in mortal danger from Sylvanas.
11/14/2018 07:43 AMPosted by Saiphas
While from an out of universe perspective we know the Alliance must survive, from an in universe perspective? It matters not the world soul surviving if all the Alliance races are in mortal danger from Sylvanas.

You probably typed that before I edited in some extra text above:

"Just because [Sylvanas attacked the Night Elves], that doesn't mean the people with the best chance of figuring out how to heal Azeroth should drop everything and go fight her. Sorry. It just doesn't. IMHO, of course."

I still say we don't know for sure that Khadgar is even up-to-date with what's going on. But even if he is, the burning of one city, horrible as it is, does not outweigh his duty to try to save Azeroth herself.
eventually he will have to rejoin the alliance or sylvanas is going to turn the entire world in undeads, but i guess that having two demigods mages would be too much. same reason why jaina hasn't been present during legion, less work for the players.
11/14/2018 07:39 AMPosted by Pellex
11/14/2018 07:38 AMPosted by Arlifrex
Burning a city filled with people is petty conflict?

Compared to the World Soul of the planet dying? Yes, it is. It's all a question of scope.

None of us should be having a faction war at a time like this. We should all be working with Khadgar (and Magni)--not the other way around.

And yes, I know Sylvanas struck first, much as I hate that fact. She shouldn't have done that either. But just because she did it, that doesn't mean the people with the best chance of figuring out how to heal Azeroth should drop everything and go fight her. Sorry. It just doesn't. IMHO, of course.


So what should the Alliance have done after Teldrassil? How should they feel when their allies within neutral factions decide to ignore them as they're being killed?
11/14/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Pellex
11/14/2018 07:43 AMPosted by Saiphas
While from an out of universe perspective we know the Alliance must survive, from an in universe perspective? It matters not the world soul surviving if all the Alliance races are in mortal danger from Sylvanas.

You probably typed that before I edited in some extra text above:

"Just because [Sylvanas attacked the Night Elves], that doesn't mean the people with the best chance of figuring out how to heal Azeroth should drop everything and go fight her. Sorry. It just doesn't. IMHO, of course."

I still say we don't know for sure that Khadgar is even up-to-date with what's going on. But even if he is, the burning of one city, horrible as it is, does not outweigh his duty to try to save Azeroth herself.


It was not just the burning of one city, it was the annihilation of most of the night elf population. Sylvanas has shown a willingness to annihilate the races of the Alliance. Why should, in-universe, Alliance characters give a flip about Azeroth when their people are fighting and dieing because she convinced the Horde to wage a war of extermination?
11/14/2018 07:47 AMPosted by Arlifrex
So what should the Alliance have done after Teldrassil? How should they feel when their allies within neutral factions decide to ignore them as they're being killed?

The Alliance has Jaina, Malfurion, Tyrande, Velen, Anduin, and a huge army to fight the war with. In-universe, there's also no reason they couldn't dust off the Vindicaar, even though Blizzard has said that wouldn't be interesting. Furthermore, the Alliance also have an understanding that the World Soul dying is a bad thing.

No one begrudges Magni staying out of the faction war and working to save Azeroth. I don't think they would begrudge Khadgar either, because he and Magni are the ones with the best chance of actually finding a solution.

11/14/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Saiphas
It was not just the burning of one city, it was the annihilation of most of the night elf population. Sylvanas has shown a willingness to annihilate the races of the Alliance. Why should, in-universe, Alliance characters give a flip about Azeroth when their people are fighting and dieing because she convinced the Horde to wage a war of extermination?

First, I still say we don't have proof that Khadgar is even following the events of the war.

Second, no one from the Alliance has ever even talked about asking him for help, or wished he was there. Does that not suggest to you that they are confident they can win with the resources they have, and/or that they agree that what he's doing now is too important for him to abandon?
11/14/2018 08:00 AMPosted by Pellex
11/14/2018 07:47 AMPosted by Arlifrex
So what should the Alliance have done after Teldrassil? How should they feel when their allies within neutral factions decide to ignore them as they're being killed?

The Alliance has Jaina, Malfurion, Tyrande, Velen, Anduin, and a huge army to fight the war with. In-universe, there's also no reason they couldn't dust off the Vindicaar, even though Blizzard has said that wouldn't be interesting. Furthermore, the Alliance also have an understanding that the World Soul dying is a bad thing.

No one begrudges Magni staying out of the faction war and working to save Azeroth. I don't think they would begrudge Khadgar either, because he and Magni are the ones with the best chance of actually finding a solution.

11/14/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Saiphas
It was not just the burning of one city, it was the annihilation of most of the night elf population. Sylvanas has shown a willingness to annihilate the races of the Alliance. Why should, in-universe, Alliance characters give a flip about Azeroth when their people are fighting and dieing because she convinced the Horde to wage a war of extermination?

First, I still say we don't have proof that Khadgar is even following the events of the war.

Second, no one from the Alliance has ever even talked about asking him for help, or wished he was there. Does that not suggest to you that they are confident they can win with the resources they have, and/or that they agree that what he's doing now is too important for him to abandon?


No not really, merely that Blizzard did not want to involve him in the storyline because it would make things complicated. Also your argument about the Alliance being confident is...yeah until the battle of DA not really a thing, as highlighted by Darkshore and by Lost Honor.
I see Khadgar like I do Malfurion. I don't like this war plot one tiniest bit and would rather they stay out of it entirely, but after Teldrassil there's really no good reason not to. What good is saving the world if everyone is dead/undead when you do?

However, in an ideal world the question wouldn't be why isn't Khadgar fighting the war; in an ideal world, the question would be why is everyone else? The world is dying, literally, actively bleeding to death from wounds all over the planet, and yet for some reason almost nobody mentions this at all. It's part of why the war is so !@#$ing awful this time around, it makes no sense to be fighting it during this.
11/14/2018 07:38 AMPosted by Arlifrex
Burning a city filled with people is petty conflict?
The reason for the conflict is petty, regardless of what's actually going on in it.

Also, yes, a burning city is petty compared to a burning planet.
11/14/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Saiphas
Why should, in-universe, Alliance characters give a flip about Azeroth when their people are fighting and dieing because she convinced the Horde to wage a war of extermination?
Well...because they live on it. If the planet dies, they'll all die even if they WIN the war against the Horde.
The Alliance has Jaina, Malfurion, Tyrande, Velen, Anduin, and a huge army to fight the war with.


The world had Khadgar, but people still hated Jaina for bailing during Legion.
11/14/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Pellex
11/14/2018 07:43 AMPosted by Saiphas
While from an out of universe perspective we know the Alliance must survive, from an in universe perspective? It matters not the world soul surviving if all the Alliance races are in mortal danger from Sylvanas.

You probably typed that before I edited in some extra text above:

"Just because [Sylvanas attacked the Night Elves], that doesn't mean the people with the best chance of figuring out how to heal Azeroth should drop everything and go fight her. Sorry. It just doesn't. IMHO, of course."

I still say we don't know for sure that Khadgar is even up-to-date with what's going on. But even if he is, the burning of one city, horrible as it is, does not outweigh his duty to try to save Azeroth herself.


Giving the Horde carte Blanche to do whatever they want because “tHe WoRlD iS dYiNg” on Khadgar’s part isn’t really the best story mechanic. Yes the world takes precedence over everything unless there’s going to be no world left but a Horde world. Also azerite mining world wide has increased under the faction war so his staying out of it has done nothing but exacerbated the problem.

Assuming he’s in total seclusion when we have people capable of sending magical email is... weird? But in world knowledge and how people communicate is always an “as the plot demands” sort of thing. One second we’re pen and paper and the next we’re magical hologram.
11/14/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Saiphas
11/14/2018 08:00 AMPosted by Pellex
Second, no one from the Alliance has ever even talked about asking him for help, or wished he was there. Does that not suggest to you that they are confident they can win with the resources they have, and/or that they agree that what he's doing now is too important for him to abandon?


No not really, merely that Blizzard did not want to involve him in the storyline because it would make things complicated.

If you accept the Doylist explanation--and frankly, I think the Doylist explanation is the right one--then just accept it.

This thread is mostly people doing Watsonian analysis on a basically Doylist situation. I'm trying to run with the Watsonian viewpoint and give you a solution that doesn't make Khadgar into a horrible person, because I don't think that was in any way the devs' intent when they wrote him out of this expac.

Also your argument about the Alliance being confident is...yeah until the battle of DA not really a thing, as highlighted by Darkshore and by Lost Honor.

Then we're back to the (Watsonian) idea that they think what Khadgar is doing is too important for them to call him away from it. Or at least, they're keeping the option in their back pocket until things get too desperate to wait any longer.

11/14/2018 08:08 AMPosted by Eldrethana
Assuming he’s in total seclusion when we have people capable of sending magical email is... weird?

I think we have to assume no one has "e-mailed" him, because then they'd tell us what his response was.
11/14/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Saiphas
...

No not really, merely that Blizzard did not want to involve him in the storyline because it would make things complicated.

If you accept the Doylist explanation--and frankly, I think the Doylist explanation is the right one--then just accept it.

This thread is mostly people doing Watsonian analysis on a basically Doylist situation. I'm trying to run with the Watsonian viewpoint and give you a solution that doesn't make Khadgar into a horrible person, because I don't think that was in any way the devs intent when they wrote him out of this expac.

Also your argument about the Alliance being confident is...yeah until the battle of DA not really a thing, as highlighted by Darkshore and by Lost Honor.

Then we're back to the (Watsonian) idea that they think what Khadgar is doing is too important for them to call him away from it. Or at least, they're keeping the option in their back pocket until things get too desperate to wait any longer.


Pellex, I am trying to illustrate why Alliance players are frustrated with the neutrality game here. Sure I accept the doyalist reason. However, that does not change the fact that enforced neutrality is to the determent of the Alliance as it makes our heroes seem unconcerned with the plight of their own peoples.
This thread is mostly people doing Watsonian analysis on a basically Doylist situation.
*sigh*

/opens up Google in another tab
11/14/2018 08:12 AMPosted by Saiphas
Pellex, I am trying to illustrate why Alliance players are frustrated with the neutrality game here. Sure I accept the doyalist reason. However, that does not change the fact that enforced neutrality is to the determent of the Alliance as it makes our heroes seem unconcerned with the plight of their own peoples.

Only because you think annihilating the Horde is more important than healing the world. Remember that Blizzard promised you would be making a choice between getting revenge and making a better future?

The problem is that Blizzard is putting all their energy into making you care about revenge, and none so far into making you care about healing the planet.

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