What would you do to fix Night Warrior?

Tides of Vengeance PTR General Discussion
Prev 1 4 5 6
10/10/2018 08:30 AMPosted by Moonweaver
Well if they didn't bother to show it in the first place, I don't see why they would do it now, they rarely change things like this.
They change things like this all the time. I do think that you need to re-examine their record in this case.
10/10/2018 11:28 AMPosted by Lakyle600EAD
10/10/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Tyriellais
...

He’s voiced by their lead scenario designer/writer now. He’s a Mary Sue.
He is not their lead scenario designer, wtf? And Metzen voiced Thrall, Varian Wrynn as well as other characters. This shouldn't be news to you.


His technical title is Senior Narrative Designer. And he’s the guy who wrote the Dark Mirror book. Yes, he’s their story lead. And, yes, Blightcaller is his self insert.

Metzen’s use of Thrall as a self insert is well known, but Metzen at least loved all the characters, races, and factions. Danuser only cares for the Foresaken, Sylvanas, Blightcaller, and now apparently Alleria (which bodes ill for her).

Funny how you pop up with story complaints or revision ideas and address topics normally, but as soon as anyone criticizes this guy you get ultra defensive. Is he a relative? Are you actually Danuser, trying to figure out some way to salvage this mess? Or is there some other reason for why you flip your lid and become ultra hostile as soon as someone dares to suggest he’s not perfect?
As far as it goes, it's all right if developers identify with particular characters. Popular Warcraft characters are often supposed to be identified with. Thrall wouldn't be nearly as powerful if we didn't identify with him, and perhaps one of the reasons Metzen was good at writing a Thrall we identified with was that Metzen identified with him personally.

I don't know Steve Danuser's mind. Frankly, I don't care. I'm here for a video game.
A good start would be not making the night elves lose.. Ya know.. Like for the 34th time? People are clearly pissed off because the lore from wc3 night elves to know is a complete 180 degrees.
10/09/2018 10:29 PMPosted by Adraia
proactivity, strength of personality, flexibility, and morality? But how is that different to the Alliance?
The Alliance isn't really proactive, they are reactive. They react to a crisis and they may work to prevent a crisis, but the Horde, they seem to embrace taking decisive actions proactively to lock in favorable circumstances for their civilization in the future. It's about always having work on hand. Even if it means undoing work you did before. The old mantra of the blood elves of 'why earn when you can take' seems to fit well in that. The Forsaken aren't a rigid command structure and neither is the rest of the Horde. The Horde is directed by a warchief, but it isn't gummed up easily.

The only thing that is holding the Horde back is it's individual's members differences on what constitutes morality. Honor, in other words.

And for the Alliance, it's Justice. Where the Horde is proactivity, strength of personality, flexibility and limited by honor, the Alliance is about justice, purity of intention, accountability and limited by reactivity.

You can of course find elements of these in both cultures, but the above seems to describe the Horde and Alliance pretty well to me.
How to fix this? instead of just giving us ugly eyes, give us NEs the Paladin class too, so we can be real night warriors. Problem solved. lol
10/11/2018 05:52 AMPosted by Lakyle600EAD
10/09/2018 10:29 PMPosted by Adraia
proactivity, strength of personality, flexibility, and morality? But how is that different to the Alliance?
The Alliance isn't really proactive, they are reactive. They react to a crisis and they may work to prevent a crisis, but the Horde, they seem to embrace taking decisive actions proactively to lock in favorable circumstances for their civilization in the future. It's about always having work on hand. Even if it means undoing work you did before. The old mantra of the blood elves of 'why earn when you can take' seems to fit well in that. The Forsaken aren't a rigid command structure and neither is the rest of the Horde. The Horde is directed by a warchief, but it isn't gummed up easily.

The only thing that is holding the Horde back is it's individual's members differences on what constitutes morality. Honor, in other words.

And for the Alliance, it's Justice. Where the Horde is proactivity, strength of personality, flexibility and limited by honor, the Alliance is about justice, purity of intention, accountability and limited by reactivity.

You can of course find elements of these in both cultures, but the above seems to describe the Horde and Alliance pretty well to me.


Justice at this point would be sterilizing Azeroth of the cancer that is the Horde. And the Alliance in canon has the power to do it.
10/11/2018 03:35 AMPosted by Christopher
A good start would be not making the night elves lose.. Ya know.. Like for the 34th time? People are clearly pissed off because the lore from wc3 night elves to know is a complete 180 degrees.


Guess the Nelves could beat the combined Horde and the Zandalari beat the rest of the Alliance?
10/11/2018 05:52 AMPosted by Lakyle600EAD
And for the Alliance, it's Justice. Where the Horde is proactivity, strength of personality, flexibility and limited by honor, the Alliance is about justice, purity of intention, accountability and limited by reactivity.


Okay, so, what does that look like? If I were to name a bunch of non-Warcraft characters or fictional groups, could you immediately recognise some as more Alliance-ish and some as more Horde-ish?

Even that distinction you've made strikes me as rather unhelpful. Was Varian not proactive? Muradin? They have pretty strong personalities. Or are Thrall or Cairne not notable for a sense of justice and the purity of their intentions? Their intentions were so pure they admitted the Forsaken into the Horde out of a desire to help them.

I also find it rather odd that you put honour in as a Horde limitation, since I'd have thought the Alliance tends to be much more honourable, or at least much more concerned with following the rules and doing the right thing. But if I had to unpack that, I'd say that the Horde and the Alliance tend to have slightly different conceptions of honour. In brief, I think Horde honour is about your ultimate intentions or goals, and Alliance honour is about following a code.

That is, Horde honour is something more like loyalty or commitment to the needs of all your family. Horde honour is putting your people before yourself, and acting for their sake. Honour is living up to your duty. Whereas Alliance honour is more like a code of chivalry, or a set of deontological rules. Alliance honour is following the rules, in spirit as well as in letter, and conducting yourself well.

Thus both sides can recognise honour in the other side, but there are cases where they will strongly differ. The Horde (primarily the 'core', barbarian Horde), for instance, will see Orgrim Doomhammer as honourable. He was genuinely trying to save and free the orcs. That goal lay behind everything he did. Sure, he did a lot of awful things, but the intent, the loyalty is what matters. The Alliance will see Doomhammer as profoundly dishonourable: he backstabbed, he slaughtered, he tortured, and so on. He broke the moral rules. His ultimate intention doesn't matter. If honour doesn't mean refusing to do such evil things, it doesn't mean anything.

And so on. It means that the Horde could potentially see Illidan as honourable, whereas the Alliance could never. At the same time, the Alliance can potentially see a sort of 'honourable treachery'. Saurfang is honourable in the Alliance sense (he refused to break the rules, and defied his warchief), but dishonourable in the Horde sense (he refused to fight for his people and their interests; he abandoned his family).

At least, that's how I tend to think of it. Interesting, no?
10/11/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Tyriellais
. And the Alliance in canon has the power to do it.


Yet couldn't take back Gnomeregan.... or prevent Teldrasil from burning... or take back The Darkshore.... or capture the Undercity.....

Yea I don't really see it sorry ;)
10/11/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Nakkiel
10/11/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Tyriellais
. And the Alliance in canon has the power to do it.


Yet couldn't take back Gnomeregan.... or prevent Teldrasil from burning... or take back The Darkshore.... or capture the Undercity.....

Yea I don't really see it sorry ;)


SHhhhhhhhh…… I have a feeling he needs this...
10/11/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Nakkiel
10/11/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Tyriellais
. And the Alliance in canon has the power to do it.


Yet couldn't take back Gnomeregan.... or prevent Teldrasil from burning... or take back The Darkshore.... or capture the Undercity.....

Yea I don't really see it sorry ;)


“Capture” the Undercity, no.

On the other hand, if we wanted to, we could have wiped it out while Sylvanas was sitting there on her throne wondering what was taking us so long.

We’ve got the gnomes. They’ve made one city uninhabitable for twenty years so far. They can do it again.
10/11/2018 09:25 PMPosted by Tyriellais
“Capture” the Undercity, no.


You went in with an easy overhelming victory and left with a pyrrhic one, how competent of you :)
10/11/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Jacksprat
SHhhhhhhhh…… I have a feeling he needs this...


I mean, if we're going to taunt each other...

The Alliance has never lost a war against the Horde. The Horde has never lost a war... except to the Alliance.

Every single time the Alliance and the Horde have fought a war, the Alliance has won. Every single time. This goes for the Old Horde and for Thrall's New Horde, but it also goes for every single splinter Horde out there. There are many Hordes: Rend's Horde, the Fel Horde in Outland, the Iron Horde, and so on. Yet every time any of them fights a war with the Alliance, the Alliance wins. Even in WoW: the Alliance and the Horde fought a war across three expansions, crossing WotLK, Cata, and MoP. Who won that?

Sure, you can make excuses. The Horde was divided. So-and-so betrayed us. Whatever. Well, part of being strong is being united. The Alliance get along with each other and cooperate, and that is one of the reasons why we always win.

Alliance storytelling is frequently depressing as all get-out, but if you want to sit down and compare victories...

The Horde has never beaten us in a war. Ever. They've been trying for decades and have never even gotten close. Every time you've made a run at it, we've won.

Fancy another go?

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum