Can we go back to the old talent trees?

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and go back to old cookie cutter specs? There was an illusion of choice.
I do miss continually building up my talent-trees while leveling. The difference was small, but I could see it. I spent a long time at each level, my abilities hitting 1% harder was noticeable to me. Mobs were difficult and I'd barely get out of fights alive, so 1% extra stamina was noticeable to me. That aspect was enjoyable.

I also appreciate having the ability to do interesting hybrid builds. I miss having a *class* fantasy, not a spec fantasy. I used to DPS as arms in a raid, and then swap to sword and board, go into defensive stance, and off-tank. That was a good feeling, because I felt like a *warrior* a true master of arms. Not a master of "Arms," a soldier who for some reason was only good at swinging a 2hander, unless he fumbled his hands together and completely changed his ability tool-kit (dual spec).

That said, the current game does not fit this design philosophy anymore, and the change alone would not fix anything. Me picking talents as I level isn't going to feel significant if I can handle mobs easily without talent points. My hybrid capability isn't going to feel interesting with dual-spec already in place, and with an overall raid design that supports a set build of "2 dedicated tanks, X dedicated healers, X DPS."

I'll check out Classic when it's here, but for now I wouldn't look at the old talent tree as some lone thing that will improve class design.
You can't look at the 2 talent trees in a vacuum. You have to look at the whole class package.

In the old system very few active abilities were talents. 3 per spec in Vanilla, 4 in TBC, and 5 in Wrath.

While the forums like to take jabs at something that used to be baseline now being a talent, in the current system a lot of the talents are just part of the spec.

Before getting abilities like ice block, mortal strike, mind flay, unstable affliction, mutilate, etc were talents that are now baseline.

This is due to having specs with their own set of abilities and talents rather than having talents define the specs of a base class.

There are also other aspects the new system brings such as:

Boss mechanics able to better target roles due to spec system. Examples like krosus orb only on ranged and Argus large bomb only on healers.

Primary stats are able to change on gear, resulting in drastically reduced gear collecting for hybrids.
Naw I'm good
10/09/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Palvanda
Honestly, if they got rid of talent trees all together and just put in a cosmetic (spells, animation, etc) tree, it would probably just be better.


THis right here would be seriously the most awful thing they could ever do, at that point take all abilities away give everyone three abilites one for attack, one for defend and one for healing and that's it.
Let's see. Old talent trees typical "LOLRET" Vanilla build (20/0/31) :

Blessing of Might + 20%. Boring
Seal of the Crusader + 15%. Boring
Judgment cooldown -2 seconds. Boring.
Seal of Command - 1 activate ability.
Conviction +5% Crit. boring.
Pursuit of Justice +8% movement speed. Boring.
Vindication - Mobs have 5% less strenght or agility
Eye for an Eye. 15% crit spell damage reflected.
Sanctity Aura - Activate ability but useless since no one deals Holy Damage
2 handed weapon Specialization - Flat 6% damage. Boring.
Vengeance. Crits gives you 15% extra damage. Proc.
Repentance. CC, Activate ability.

Divine Strength +10% strength. Boring.
Spiritual focus +70% resist spell pushback
Improved Lay on Hands -20 minutes on Lay on Hands cooldown (gee thanks)
Unyielding Faith +10% fear resist. Boring
Consecration Active Ability
Illumination. Crits refund mana.

So what do we have here. We have 4 active abilities.

Consecration Active Ability
Repentance. CC, Activate ability.
Seal of Command - 1 activate ability.
Sanctity Aura - Activate ability but useless since no one deals Holy Damage

We have 4 abilities that are actual Procs or effects added to your character

Spiritual focus +70% resist spell pushback
Vengeance. Crits gives you 15% extra damage. Proc.
Eye for an Eye. 15% crit spell damage reflected.
Illumination. Crits refund mana.

The rest are cooldown adjustments and number tuning. So realistically, the old trees gave us "8 talents". Whereas now we have 7 choices to make. The kicker ? those 8 talents don't have "3 options" each like today.

So yes, old trees were worse than what we have today.
10/09/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Andrin
10/09/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Palvanda
Honestly, if they got rid of talent trees all together and just put in a cosmetic (spells, animation, etc) tree, it would probably just be better.


THis right here would be seriously the most awful thing they could ever do, at that point take all abilities away give everyone three abilites one for attack, one for defend and one for healing and that's it.


Compared to... Choosing between 3 abilities but actually being forced to pick 1 for each level because it is better? Why even have talents at that point? It is pointless. There will never be a talent system that is balanced, you will always have to pick the best if you want to play at even a semi-serious level.

Is the illusion of choice really that important to you that you insist they keep trying to balance and fix something that can never work? That is why they got rid of the old system. Min/Maxing isn't fun. Copying an online guide for talents isn't a choice.
It was a lot more rewarding while you leveled. Every level after 10 gave you something that made your character feel a bit stronger. It was actually fun to level new characters. This new talent system gives talents that can, and often do, alter gameplay, but at the expense of being a boring way to level.

Since no one today cares about the journey, you will be hard pressed to find anyone that agrees with you. I can't wait for classic. All these things people say everyone is going to hate, like the QoL improvements, and talent trees etc. are the exact things I'm looking forward to. I like having to pick and choose which ability upgrades I buy because I don't have enough gold. I liked the feeling of accomplishment I got after I bought my first epic mount. People like to think they can speak for others, but no one truly knows what you like but you.

I wouldn't hold my breath for the old trees to come back, the talent grids are here to stay. Just wait for classic, and hope you are a true fan of it, because if not, this version will detract from you experience.
10/09/2018 09:53 AMPosted by Zhoe
It was a lot more rewarding while you leveled. Every level after 10 gave you something that made your character feel a bit stronger.


More often than not, I simply didn't bother even putting the "single point" in. Just did it every 4-5 levels since the different of +1% crit was so minuscule.

Now your character starts with the +5% Crit right out the gate the minute you pick Retribution spec as that is part of your passive. You're not a weakling becoming stronger, you're simply strong.
10/09/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Palvanda
10/09/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Andrin
...

THis right here would be seriously the most awful thing they could ever do, at that point take all abilities away give everyone three abilites one for attack, one for defend and one for healing and that's it.


Compared to... Choosing between 3 abilities but actually being forced to pick 1 for each level because it is better? Why even have talents at that point? It is pointless. There will never be a talent system that is balanced, you will always have to pick the best if you want to play at even a semi-serious level.

Is the illusion of choice really that important to you that you insist they keep trying to balance and fix something that can never work? That is why they got rid of the old system. Min/Maxing isn't fun. Copying an online guide for talents isn't a choice.


FF XII does quite well without talent trees. Of course their storytelling is awesome, their devs care, and the community is helpful, so maybe it has a bit more going on than ease of balance.
10/09/2018 09:55 AMPosted by Beraaht
10/09/2018 09:53 AMPosted by Zhoe
It was a lot more rewarding while you leveled. Every level after 10 gave you something that made your character feel a bit stronger.


More often than not, I simply didn't bother even putting the "single point" in. Just did it every 4-5 levels since the different of +1% crit was so minuscule.

Now your character starts with the +5% Crit right out the gate the minute you pick Retribution spec as that is part of your passive. You're not a weakling becoming stronger, you're simply strong.


Without the feeling of progression many enjoy. Not much changes from level 10 to level 120 in terms of what you do to kill things. I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their mind, please offer me the same respect. I'm simply offering the OP some comfort knowing he is not alone in his wants, but he needs to accept what is here.
The new talent trees are one of the best things to happen to WoW.
10/09/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Klowdy


FF XII does quite well without talent trees. Of course their storytelling is awesome, their devs care, and the community is helpful, so maybe it has a bit more going on than ease of balance.


Is this the game you are talking about?
https://steamcharts.com/app/595520
Because if so, I can see how it would be easy to listen to a few hundred people.
No, please. I don't need a dual wielding blood DK trying to tank using only obliterate again. Once was enough. You really don't know just how bad the average player is.
Cata had the best talent tree :) if you think otherwise well...you are wrong @.@
10/09/2018 10:04 AMPosted by Palvanda
10/09/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Klowdy


FF XII does quite well without talent trees. Of course their storytelling is awesome, their devs care, and the community is helpful, so maybe it has a bit more going on than ease of balance.


Is this the game you are talking about?
https://steamcharts.com/app/595520
Because if so, I can see how it would be easy to listen to a few hundred people.


Well the guy meant FFXIV, not FF12 lmao, FF12 isn't even an MMO, it's an RPG made in 2006.
10/09/2018 07:47 AMPosted by Nippysmilk
I was just looking back on old talent trees and I noticed how they were so much more full with making the class get what it needs

Can we get that system back?

Pretty much you always end up with a cookie cutter build but at least if you do it the old way you can put tools to see vital to the classes feel into the spec with out having to jack up peoples toons with artifact weapons or azerite traits

for the love of god it worked so well why did we ever change?

No thanks. Cookie cutter talent trees were even more boring. The only ones who didn't stick to the cookie cutter likely never raided since it would decrease their dps/hps by a lot.
10/09/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Eret
and go back to old cookie cutter specs? There was an illusion of choice.


As it is now.

There will always be a cookie cutter spec, doesn't mean you can't have fun playing another ones.

The thing is that at that time classes felt way more complete and the old talent tree added flavor to the specs, also you could make some crazy builds and have fun especially playing random BGs.

Now with all the pruning we are forced to decide between old baseline abilities, for example: lock portal, warrior spell reflect, hammer of wrath...

They should have kept classes the way they were during WoTLK and just add this new system with NEW talents and skills.
10/09/2018 07:55 AMPosted by Nippysmilk
you people are brain washed if you think we have the illusion of choice.

You all pick the same talents for the same things and stack exactly the same stats as the guy next to you


.... Hence, the illusion of choice. Reading is hard, huh?
10/09/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Zhoe
Without the feeling of progression many enjoy. Not much changes from level 10 to level 120 in terms of what you do to kill things.


Old talent trees, you got 4 active abilities from first level to cap from talents.

New talent trees, you get about 4 active abilities from first level to cap if you so desire (it's now up to you).

Nothing as changed progression wise. 1% overall damage or crit doesn't change what you do to kill things. It's just number tuning. So those "talent points" were not really impactful.

10/09/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Zhoe
I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their mind, please offer me the same respect


There is nothing disrespectful in trying to change your mind and I will continue to do so, as you want to make the game worse IMO. The old talent trees were the illusion of choice and in fact were just Tedium clicking in a UI with rare actual "progression".

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