WW nerfed heavily on PTR.

Monk
ToD damage reduced to 35 percent of your max hp from 50 percent.

ToK only redirecting 50 percent of your hp max.

So it looks like. ohhh... 2-3 percent damage nerf on Touch of death.
and about 6 percent damage nerf from touch of karma.

Looks like they want us to all reroll I guess.

OH BOY OH BOY but via an honor talent, yes one of your FEW honor talents, you can get OLD touch of death back and completely remove any burst potential you may have hoped to ever have gotten.

these guys are high out of their brains.

GOOD LUCK GETTING YOUR TARGET To 10 percent!
They need to give us more honor talent slots at this point, or start giving us some of these honor talents as baseline..
10/23/2018 04:32 PMPosted by Ultrios
ToD damage reduced to 35 percent of your max hp from 50 percent.

ToK only redirecting 50 percent of your hp max.

So it looks like. ohhh... 2-3 percent damage nerf on Touch of death.
and about 6 percent damage nerf from touch of karma.

Looks like they want us to all reroll I guess.

OH BOY OH BOY but via an honor talent, yes one of your FEW honor talents, you can get OLD touch of death back and completely remove any burst potential you may have hoped to ever have gotten.

these guys are high out of their brains.

GOOD LUCK GETTING YOUR TARGET To 10 percent!

First of all, atleast as far as PVP goes, the karma damage nerf isn't a big deal considering Karma didn't do any damage to begin with, and as far as the absorb goes, it's basically always been 50% in arena considering you don't really take Good Karma over TTS or ROP anyway.

Also ontop of the nerf they made to TOD, they also made a change buffing our overall damage by 4% I believe it was, we had too much damage tied into TOD to begin with, so having my RSK/BOK/FIST hit a bit harder at the price of a 2-3% TOD nerf is a price im willing to take, ESPECIALLY considering I likely will be using the TOD 10% execute talent as well. I cant tell you how many times i've had an enemy at like 7% HP but couldn't finish due to having no damage left besides a Blackout Kick.

Think your overexaggerating these changes too much, I personally see them as buffs, having Expel Harm back as well as having TOD become an execute again ontop of having a 4% damage buff to our abilities seem's better & more fun to me
If monks suck in pve after these changes they will find other good ways to buff the class so it’s a really good change.

Having all that damage tied to touch of death and karma was a terrible design and made the spec so terrible. They are going in the right direction with this.
10/23/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Omnipotentjc
If monks suck in pve after these changes they will find other good ways to buff the class so it’s a really good change.

Having all that damage tied to touch of death and karma was a terrible design and made the spec so terrible. They are going in the right direction with this.

exactly

a 4% buff to our abilities and having TOD be an execute again sounds pretty damn good to me

also expel harm feelsgoodman
10/23/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Omnipotentjc
If monks suck in pve after these changes they will find other good ways to buff the class so it’s a really good change.

Having all that damage tied to touch of death and karma was a terrible design and made the spec so terrible. They are going in the right direction with this.

sorry but i disagree i loved plaaning the best times to use karma now it's moving closer to a face on keyboard spec.

edit:looking the change myself this change is actually better for karma but i'm still not happy about ToD change. it better since it absorbs damage so it will be easier to stand in crap and not die to damage the enemy.
10/23/2018 11:34 PMPosted by Dynamesia
10/23/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Omnipotentjc
If monks suck in pve after these changes they will find other good ways to buff the class so it’s a really good change.

Having all that damage tied to touch of death and karma was a terrible design and made the spec so terrible. They are going in the right direction with this.

sorry but i disagree i loved plaaning the best times to use karma now it's moving closer to a face on keyboard spec.

edit:looking the change myself this change is actually better for karma but i'm still not happy about ToD change. it better since it absorbs damage so it will be easier to stand in crap and not die to damage the enemy.


Karma change literally is no different in PVP since it already doesn't do much damage in PVP, and unless im reading the new tooltip wrong somehow, this change wont make a difference in PVP, PVE however I could see how it'd be a nerf.

TOD change is a nerf in PVE & PVP, but PVP wise I can foresee us running the TOD execute talent vs most matchups which if it is the case, the TOD nerf isn't a big deal either.

And they did compensate us by 4% increased damage to our abilities as well if im not wrong so we are being compensated for the nerf to TOK/TOD damage.
Whether or not that 4% compensation was enough to warrant the nerfs for PVE I wont answer since I dont PVE much, but again PVP wise having Expel Harm & execute TOD with 4% increased overall damage sounds decent to me.
10/23/2018 11:34 PMPosted by Dynamesia
10/23/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Omnipotentjc
If monks suck in pve after these changes they will find other good ways to buff the class so it’s a really good change.

Having all that damage tied to touch of death and karma was a terrible design and made the spec so terrible. They are going in the right direction with this.

sorry but i disagree i loved plaaning the best times to use karma now it's moving closer to a face on keyboard spec.

edit:looking the change myself this change is actually better for karma but i'm still not happy about ToD change. it better since it absorbs damage so it will be easier to stand in crap and not die to damage the enemy.


When wws came out in Pandaria we had tigereye brew for our main cooldown. We generated stacks of tigereye by spending chi. It was always about getting out the most abilities to ultimately choose when is the best time to use your tigereye.

The problem with touch of death is that it isn’t like that, it’s either on cooldown or off cooldown so you benefit from total damage if you simply use it on cooldown. It is still going to be like that and it kind of sucks. Touch of death is still a terrible abilities.

Touch of karma was always used to do extra damage if you knew you didn’t need it to survive, for example the little raiding I did in MoP I remember in fights I knew there was a low chance of me dying I would use karma and take damage just to get a little bit of extra damage. On most fights if I didn’t think we were going to win or it would be tough I would only karma right before I was supposed to die. It is still going to be used like this.

Right now having all this damage tied to touch of death and touch of karma has WW gameplay at an all time low.

With abilties like RJW and static cooldowns WW gameplay is terriblely slow and these changes aren’t going to solve that. But it’s a step in the right direction away from being touch of death and karma bots and I like that.

They can still do better in terms of class design though. Like change the touch of death trait and make it reduce cooldown of touch of death when you combo strike and even storm earth fire and serentiy for that matter passively .

I would personally love to see ToD scrapped entirely and have them bring back tigereye and I know others would like that too.
If touch of death does 35% of your total health in damage but still does 10% of all the damage you put into it, doesn’t your abilities doing 4% more damage even it out? Our hp keeps going up too so maybe they needed to do that anyway.

I wouldn’t take that pressure point talent as the sharpen on a 2 min cooldown warriors get sharpen as a 25 sec cooldown lol. And idk how I feel about it being the execute for a pvp talent either. I feel like they should just made it the execute in pvp baseline and buffed damage to make up for the lost damage you would have had from touch of death.

Even if it is really crappy for pvp touch of death is still good for pulling out cooldowns I don’t see losing that for the execute being any good really. In MoP how important was touch of death? Not very important. Tigereye was our main cooldown and right now touch of death is our tigereye. So idk if that really makes sence to me.
You guys are happy trading 10% damage for a 4% damage buff in pve lol. Crazy...

It's TRUE the karma change doesnt equate to less pvp dps.

You all think we have 6% dos to fart away on pve charts? Wowza.

The 4% aura buff didnt even cover good karma in pve let alone ToD. Why would they nerf a mid tier St Spec with trash aoe.

In pvp we need huge buffs and I see a couple mediocre pvp talents.

Meanwhile feral getting cyclone back.

Dks getting neurotic strike that does %max hp and refreshes on heals.

But you goons are pleased as punch to get a nerf and old touch of death back via honor talents. Lol no wonder blizz treats monk like trash.
Far as i'm concerned, these changes hardly fix some of the mechanical issues ww has. These changes just seem like a redistribution of damage, which i'm quite opposed to because blizzard could have just given WW more damage w/o actually tuning damage numbers through mechanical changes.

A few examples i can think of include but are not limited to.

Reduce the CD of RSK by X seconds.
Make some of the tier interactions/bonuses that made Tomb WW 6pc play style so amazing, baseline.
Make a new talent that just disables SEF and flat out gives a massive damage boost to RSK, FoF, BoK, TP, etc.
Reduce the cost of TP by 10-15 energy.
Reduce WW's GCD to .75 seconds.
Undo the GCD changes to EE.
Undo the GCD changes to WW in general.
Undo the changes to Hit Combo.
Make WDP baseline.
Some mix of the above suggested changes.

As for why to just give WW more damage, i ask "why not?" Plenty of other specs have both crazy burst and excellent sustained. A few that come to mind are Affy lock, sin rogue, and the most insulting of all Havoc DH because they're just a clone of WW except optimized. Among other reasons to just give WW (and this applies to other specs too in certain regards) is that this would make content easier which might push more people to raid which is kind of what blizzard is aiming for.
10/24/2018 03:01 AMPosted by Ultrios
In pvp we need huge buffs and I see a couple mediocre pvp talents.

Meanwhile feral getting cyclone back.

Dks getting neurotic strike that does %max hp and refreshes on heals.

But you goons are pleased as punch to get a nerf and old touch of death back via honor talents. Lol no wonder blizz treats monk like trash.


DK is in a bad spot, they need buffs in PVP, so them making a once main ability for DK better is a good thing
Feral's getting cloned back is a good thing, so long as they tune the damage that they put out, giving classes more CC/Utility is a good thing btw, it cant be all about damage...

And yeah, i am happy about getting old TOD back because I miss when WW had unique burst, i miss when we had a unique execute, I miss when we had unique utility, so far we have none of those, but them doing this change atleast makes us unique again in the execute area, and in higher rated arena's TOD is very predictable and often peeled up pretty easily unless your playing a comp where you have tons of CC (ww/mage, ww/spriest) and you can triple CC the entire enemy team, but if not, TOD often falls by the wayside and isn't actually that good anyways, then ontop of that it's getting nerfed too, making it even worse. So why wouldn't you choose the execute TOD in tons of matchups now?

Btw this goon has been over 600+ rating higher than you've ever been and im sure I have way more time spent in PVP to warrant what im saying, so I wouldn't go there.
10/24/2018 12:14 AMPosted by Omnipotentjc
With abilties like RJW and static cooldowns WW gameplay is terriblely slow and these changes aren’t going to solve that. But it’s a step in the right direction away from being touch of death and karma bots and I like that.

TBH I like Rushing Jade Wind, has a sick animation and I never really feel energy starved or slowed in my rotation, it doesn't feel bad. I hate Hit Combo, not being able to repeat abilities OUTSIDE of burst feels weird and just not fun IMO. Im fine with Xuen though.

If it were up to me id revert RJW back to its iteration in MOP/WOD/Legion but actually make it viable and do good damage like it did in MOP, and make Tiger be a good contender for it. Making that tree based solely on playstyle would be cool.
Sorry resilients didnt realize you were at over 3000 rating at one point.

May as well call it over 9000! My sad !@# was only ever 2400 something on my mage so that's not high enough eh?

Hey let me check your pve parses and see your top ten placements too and 99th percentiles.

It's ok I wont call your arguments invalid for it like some people if you dont have them.

BUT if you like being unique and you wanna spend a PVP talent to swap ToD to about 15k damage from whatever it was before 20-30k? Hey be my guest. Yeah you can have your damage instant at 15k CONDITIONALLY instead of delayed for double without a condition.

Yeah its true people can use a defensive to reduce tod easily and guess what? You get them to burn a defensive and still your tod probably did more than 15k damage lol unless they immuned.

But hey you go ahead and spend an honor talent to make tod do 15k less damage and praise how unique it is. Sure tod may just get ice blocked or bubbled right now, but at least it might force that cd. And if you just get pain sup or bark skin, you wouldnt have gotten it without that tod possibly. And if they dont use it before 10% and you get them there without ToD, you're probably relying entirely on your partner.

Guess how much damage ToD will do with that honor talent if you cant pressure them to 10% hp? Hrmm... I dont see it. I guess surprise cheese or people using defensives improperly?

I dont even see the benefit. Maybe I'm missing something. 15k damage instant if they're already nearly dead only. Or 20-30k delayed unless you force defenses where it does 15k still probably, or you force an immunity.

Which sounds better on paper? Maybe I'm wrong idk.

pvp aside you're completely ignoring the massive pve dps nerf where were struggling for mid pack.
I just feel like if touch of death is made into an execute again through a talent and having no damage increase to make up for our new main offensive CD doesn’t seem very realistic. Yes I will love having ToD as an execute back but I would be a liar if I said I didn’t use touch of death on cooldown in arena and even run a trait to ruduce it’s cooldown if I don’t run xuen and serenity.

I don’t see myself taking execute over our main offensive cooldown now even with the nerf... which I don’t think is going to be a huge nerf because we are getting more HP and will be able to do more damage into.

I’ve never liked RJW any iteration of it I’ve always found it boring with mediocre damage and I do feel like it slows me down. I got used to hit combo in legion that’s why I still use it now I realize the tiger might be better but hitcombo gives me the illusion of having some sustained damage.

As for being happy with the pve nerfs. Yes I am happy they are turning away from toxic gameplay that is making the game absolutely terrible to play relieing on long cooldowns and defensive cds to make the class somewhat okay.

The tigereye brew playstyle was the funnest version of monk. I didn’t pve in legion because the rotation with touch of death storm earth fire and strike of the windlord was extremely boring. But with good mobility, good self heals, good cc and good burst it was pretty fun for arenas. But I still ended up leveling a whole bunch of diferent classes because at the end of the day WW wasn’t that fun in legion. And got 100x worse in BFA.

To fix WW in BFA they need self heals and they need to move away from static cooldowns. Why would you take a WW when a DH can do everything a WW can but better? They also passively heal in combat. Monks we can stop dpsing and hard cast....
10/24/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Ultrios
Sorry resilients didnt realize you were at over 3000 rating at one point.

May as well call it over 9000! My sad !@# was only ever 2400 something on my mage so that's not high enough eh?

Hey let me check your pve parses and see your top ten placements too and 99th percentiles.

It's ok I wont call your arguments invalid for it like some people if you dont have them.

BUT if you like being unique and you wanna spend a PVP talent to swap ToD to about 15k damage from whatever it was before 20-30k? Hey be my guest. Yeah you can have your damage instant at 15k CONDITIONALLY instead of delayed for double without a condition.

Yeah its true people can use a defensive to reduce tod easily and guess what? You get them to burn a defensive and still your tod probably did more than 15k damage lol unless they immuned.

But hey you go ahead and spend an honor talent to make tod do 15k less damage and praise how unique it is. Sure tod may just get ice blocked or bubbled right now, but at least it might force that cd. And if you just get pain sup or bark skin, you wouldnt have gotten it without that tod possibly. And if they dont use it before 10% and you get them there without ToD, you're probably relying entirely on your partner.

Guess how much damage ToD will do with that honor talent if you cant pressure them to 10% hp? Hrmm... I dont see it. I guess surprise cheese or people using defensives improperly?

I dont even see the benefit. Maybe I'm missing something. 15k damage instant if they're already nearly dead only. Or 20-30k delayed unless you force defenses where it does 15k still probably, or you force an immunity.

Which sounds better on paper? Maybe I'm wrong idk.

pvp aside you're completely ignoring the massive pve dps nerf where were struggling for mid pack.


First of all, you've never been 2400, your armory/achievements show that, so dont come in and lie about your EXP now, and ive been mid 2700's & have multiple Gladiators, so again, I wouldn't go down this road. And even if you ACTUALLY WERE "2400 on my mage" that still doesn't make it a WW now does it?

As for PVE parses, I already stated every time ive posted that im speaking from a PVP standpoint only, which is the only relevant viewpoint as for as the TOD debate goes b/c its a PVP talent ONLY, so I dont understand why you'd bring up PVE to back up your statement when it isn't going to help anyways, or did you need some sort of backup to make yourself seem like a good player b/c you lack the EXP in arena? Stop.

And I just told you that the TOD execute talent would be situational, meaning comps like WW/Mage it has potential because YOU DO have the burst to get somebody to 10%, but eventually run out of damage. But TOD as a proc would be better for comps where you dont have that instant burst (WWLx type of comps). There's been tons of times where I got players to 10% HP but couldn't finish due to WW's lack of damage outside of CD's.
Once again, you try to make post's that make zero sense without actually reading what I was saying, which is why I dont understand why you brought up:
10/24/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Ultrios
Guess how much damage ToD will do with that honor talent if you cant pressure them to 10% hp? Hrmm... I dont see it. I guess surprise cheese or people using defensives improperly?

BTW there are situations where a Mage is at say 9% HP, his temporal goes off and he survives b/c you didnt have a RSK ready, again where TOD execute may come in handy, or a situation where a boomy Bear forms / skin / Regen at say 6% HP and ends up surviving b/c again you ran out of damage.
ONCE AGAIN quit undermining the talent without trying it.

10/24/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Ultrios
pvp aside you're completely ignoring the massive pve dps nerf where were struggling for mid pack.

Once again I dont care about PVE, and all my posts thus far haven't mentioned PVE and have only mentioned PVP b/c its a PVP related topic whether or not a PVP TALENT will be good.

10/24/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Ultrios
But hey you go ahead and spend an honor talent to make tod do 15k less damage and praise how unique it is. Sure tod may just get ice blocked or bubbled right now, but at least it might force that cd. And if you just get pain sup or bark skin, you wouldnt have gotten it without that tod possibly. And if they dont use it before 10% and you get them there without ToD, you're probably relying entirely on your partner.

Once again, its situational, you seem to forget that. And using a TWO MINUTE offensive CD just to force a Bark Skin is not worth the trade regardless and having a 10% execute would be much more valuable.

10/24/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Ultrios
BUT if you like being unique and you wanna spend a PVP talent to swap ToD to about 15k damage from whatever it was before 20-30k? Hey be my guest. Yeah you can have your damage instant at 15k CONDITIONALLY instead of delayed for double without a condition.

Like, im about to cry at the fact that your memory is so poor that despite me saying this talent would be situational, you seem to forget anyway. A 25-30k TOD thats HIGHLY REACTABLE & PEELABLE is NOT that amazing of an ability, if you get the full effect off sure, but once again its one of those things where you have to have a flawless !@# setup and be playing the right comp to get full effect of TOD vs smarter teams, a secured execute when the target hits 10% HP sounds AMAZING, ONCE AGAIN, depending on the playstyle of the comp your playing, as well as the comp your facing, but you keep assuming that im speaking about using the talent 100% of the time around the clock.

Like stop, you don't read a fraction of what I say then you try to shut down the idea of this talent having situational potential without an actual arguement, that makes you ignorant.

10/24/2018 05:39 AMPosted by Omnipotentjc
Yes I will love having ToD as an execute back but I would be a liar if I said I didn’t use touch of death on cooldown in arena and even run a trait to ruduce it’s cooldown if I don’t run xuen and serenity.

You shouldn't be using TOD off CD in arena to begin with so...

10/24/2018 05:39 AMPosted by Omnipotentjc
I’ve never liked RJW any iteration of it I’ve always found it boring with mediocre damage and I do feel like it slows me down. I got used to hit combo in legion that’s why I still use it now I realize the tiger might be better but hitcombo gives me the illusion of having some sustained damage.

I understand that. The way you feel about HC giving you a sense of sustained damage is the way I feel about RJW, but idk about you, but RJW actually had some real damage back in MOP. Just the fact that you can never repeat abilities at all even if its just a filler to ramp up for the next setup sounds boring and stale to me.

10/24/2018 05:39 AMPosted by Omnipotentjc
The tigereye brew playstyle was the funnest version of monk. I didn’t pve in legion because the rotation with touch of death storm earth fire and strike of the windlord was extremely boring. But with good mobility, good self heals, good cc and good burst it was pretty fun for arenas.

Tigereye Brew playstyle was byfar the most fun. I didnt PVE in legion either b/c cba doing PVE, and as far as legion WW in PVP goes, it was just okay to me, but nothing to the level of fun I had in MOP/WOD style WW.
It's a step in the right direction. 8.1 will hit ww's hard, but it should force them to make the rest of our abilities a little more meaningful. It will just take them a while to do so. It's unfortunate, but since they didn't bother acting on any of their beta information, this is what we have to deal with.
TOD execute is going to be a good talent IMO. Current iteration of TOD is being nerfed anyway and the damage is 100% telegraphed. As a druid main If I see TOD I just press skin and bear and lol at the damage proc.
10/24/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Valdaram
TOD execute is going to be a good talent IMO. Current iteration of TOD is being nerfed anyway and the damage is 100% telegraphed. As a druid main If I see TOD I just press skin and bear and lol at the damage proc.


Well there are two other targets to choose from that don’t have that option. The execute talent sucks.

Why are you on the monk forums posting as a warlock and being a Druid main?
Dude firstly I'm sorry if I came across as rude. My complaints are pve and pvp related and I'm passionate/displeased at the state of WW in all aspects. I dont understand their changes. It's not fun to see other more viable specs getting more changes. We've already been waiting a long time to be viable without good changes and shadow priests are super viable and getting reworked. Ferals are viable and getting cyclone. Feral was god at xpac launch. When can WW play? I feel the current changes wont help.

We dont have to agree on this issue and can still be friends. You have convinced me of one area where the ToD execute is good, chiefly vs say a MW shield.

The ONLY situation I see that execute working well is on top of a BIG shield that CANT be or ISNT purged. But then again, you're going to need to get them to 10% without ToD. And in most situations, I feel like trading guaranteed set damage for conditional damage that is ALWAYS LOWER is just a terrible trade.

Yes tod has a 2 minute CD, but the pvp talent makes it a permanent CD until a given situation arises.

Consider this. The pvp talent CD could have a 20 minute CD on top of it with no reset on kills and the outcome would be the same in 99% of 3s matches. The talent may as well read one use per arena.

That means you're only ever going to get 15000 useful total damage from this in MOST 3s situations. After one use, the game is basically done.

But the current 2min ToD may see 2 uses very easily. That means the longer a game goes, the less valuable that pvp talent becomes. And I dont think you're gonna generate nearly enough pressure with current WW without ToD to use it quickly. At that point you're relying on your partner, and they may as well take anyone else.

Maybe breaking it down into the most basic parts might help?

Two pros:
1) goes through shields
2) instant

Cons:
1) requires pvp talent
2) greatly reduced damage
3) conditional usage.

I can't consider that it goes through defensives other than shields as a pro, because the damage is reduced so much that it is still lower than regular TOD.

Now, if it went through immunities as well, wed be in business.

Now if this talent increased damage in pvp by 5% while ToD wasnt on cooldown, or executed at 20%, I'd be jumping for joy.

Is a 20% execute unreasonable? Fire mages are instant casting meteors for 40k on a 2m cooldown. That's better than if current ToD were instant.

You're talking our main burst cooldown and reducing its damage while costing a pvp talent. It better be damn good.

When tod execute was a thing, damage wasnt balanced around it, correct?

In closing, you re not considering scaling either.

With certain comps and buffs i see people at 190000 hp now.

That means the pvp tod would be 19k. Alright, that is like one crit rising sun kick with cds. Less than that.

Current tod will scale much higher . If I have 200k hp with fort and 8.1 gear, current ToD will be more like 60k or 70k at that point versus 20k. That makes sense yeah?

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