What I want to see for Frost Death Knight

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
11/08/2018 12:23 PMPosted by Nargìl
11/08/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Ghannon
Don't mess with a spec that already is performing at the top......

It works and it works well.

If you want to change things for PvP purposes, that is another argument, but for PvE the spec is doing very well. Leave it alone.


Sorry for responding on both threads, but I just wanted to make clear my point on this. Yes the numbers are fine, nobody is doubting that. However, a large number of people aren't finding it FUN, which in my opinion is more important than raw numbers. I'd rather be a mid tier dps than be at the top and not have fun. Vitalus is right, there's waaaay too much downtime right now, and it's very frustrating to be spending a large portion of every fight auto attacking with nothing to press because your runes take forever to recharge.

I had fun with the BoS build in NH. Sure it was overtuned a bit there but it was a much smoother rotation with much less downtime. If frost played like it did back then, I'd have fewer complaints about it.

Also, the sheathing on the back option needs to be a thing. That's just for aesthetic purposes of course, but it'd be nice to have that option. Certain weapons would look infinitely better on your back instead of on your hip.


You would find it fun if you pre-planned your fight.

Firstly, look at the average length of the fights. Is it more beneficial to use your cool downs at the beginning of a fight where you may be able to fit a 2nd BoS in, or to wait for a phase in the fight where the burst of BoS will reward more?

Secondly, loading up for the burst phase to prolong it. Fore thought is required.

Does the boss put up a dot or put down pools where you could soak the damage with AMS and gain more Runic Power to prolong your BoS? Fore thought.

Does the boss use knock backs or movement impairing abilities that would interfere during your BoS burst? Hold your Death's Advance for those mechanics and you can get the most out of your cool downs w/o having to worry about fight mechanics ruining them. Fore thought.

In closing, the spec is well thought out and a lot of the Death Knights abilities' are there for you to use so you can get the most out of it. It just requires a little brain power, which sadly, a lot of DK's are lacking.
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Sorry for responding on both threads, but I just wanted to make clear my point on this. Yes the numbers are fine, nobody is doubting that. However, a large number of people aren't finding it FUN, which in my opinion is more important than raw numbers. I'd rather be a mid tier dps than be at the top and not have fun. Vitalus is right, there's waaaay too much downtime right now, and it's very frustrating to be spending a large portion of every fight auto attacking with nothing to press because your runes take forever to recharge.

I had fun with the BoS build in NH. Sure it was overtuned a bit there but it was a much smoother rotation with much less downtime. If frost played like it did back then, I'd have fewer complaints about it.

Also, the sheathing on the back option needs to be a thing. That's just for aesthetic purposes of course, but it'd be nice to have that option. Certain weapons would look infinitely better on your back instead of on your hip.


You would find it fun if you pre-planned your fight.

Firstly, look at the average length of the fights. Is it more beneficial to use your cool downs at the beginning of a fight where you may be able to fit a 2nd BoS in, or to wait for a phase in the fight where the burst of BoS will reward more?

Secondly, loading up for the burst phase to prolong it. Fore thought is required.

Does the boss put up a dot or put down pools where you could soak the damage with AMS and gain more Runic Power to prolong your BoS? Fore thought.

Does the boss use knock backs or movement impairing abilities that would interfere during your BoS burst? Hold your Death's Advance for those mechanics and you can get the most out of your cool downs w/o having to worry about fight mechanics ruining them. Fore thought.

In closing, the spec is well thought out and a lot of the Death Knights abilities' are there for you to use so you can get the most out of it. It just requires a little brain power, which sadly, a lot of DK's are lacking.


The reason why it isn't fun isn't the damage it does or the length of breathes, it's the downtime afterwards. The class needs runes! More runes means more Runic power, which means longer breathes and less downtime.
You forgot 2H weapons or the ability to sheath 1H on back :)
11/09/2018 08:31 AMPosted by Ghannon


You would find it fun if you pre-planned your fight.

Firstly, look at the average length of the fights. Is it more beneficial to use your cool downs at the beginning of a fight where you may be able to fit a 2nd BoS in, or to wait for a phase in the fight where the burst of BoS will reward more?

Secondly, loading up for the burst phase to prolong it. Fore thought is required.

Does the boss put up a dot or put down pools where you could soak the damage with AMS and gain more Runic Power to prolong your BoS? Fore thought.

Does the boss use knock backs or movement impairing abilities that would interfere during your BoS burst? Hold your Death's Advance for those mechanics and you can get the most out of your cool downs w/o having to worry about fight mechanics ruining them. Fore thought.

In closing, the spec is well thought out and a lot of the Death Knights abilities' are there for you to use so you can get the most out of it. It just requires a little brain power, which sadly, a lot of DK's are lacking.


I don't remember mentioning having any problems with the breath phase. My complaint is that downtime outside of the breath phase is unbearable. I mean sure, being knocked back by some boss ability and losing a huge chunk of your damage sucks when it happens, but that's something we have to deal with in exchange for the super high burst we get. That's not something I'm overly concerned about and I agree that it takes planning. That's not my major issue or the major issue of most dk's.

Don't tell me that I'm "lacking brain power", I play 6 classes (monk, dk, war, paladin, hunter, shaman), at a decently high level in PVE and have been a mythic level raider from wrath till the beginning of WoD almost exclusively on my dk. The way our resources recharge at this point makes it not fun. I've mentioned before that the BoS build in NH functioned fine and I actually really liked it. The way it functions now is frustrating and it has nothing to do with BoS itself, it's the fact that you're sitting around for almost a full third of the fight with no resources.

I mean sure, being knocked back by some boss ability and losing a huge chunk of your damage sucks when it happens, but that's something we have to deal with in exchange for the super high burst we get.

Don't tell me that I'm "lacking brain power", I play 6 classes (monk, dk, war, paladin, hunter, shaman), at a decently high level in PVE and have been a mythic level raider from wrath till the beginning of WoD almost exclusively on my dk. The way our resources recharge at this point makes it not fun. I've mentioned before that the BoS build in NH functioned fine and I actually really liked it. The way it functions now is frustrating and it has nothing to do with BoS itself, it's the fact that you're sitting around for almost a full third of the fight with no resources.


Right there. You do not even know the mechanics of your class that you want drastic changes for. Death's advance prevents knock backs. So "being knocked back by some boss ability" does not exist when you save it for the right moment.

Mythic level raiding didn't exist until WoD, so again you don't know what you're talking about. Finally, maybe if you spent more time on one class you would actually be good.... food for thought.
11/09/2018 10:49 AMPosted by Ghannon

I mean sure, being knocked back by some boss ability and losing a huge chunk of your damage sucks when it happens, but that's something we have to deal with in exchange for the super high burst we get.

Don't tell me that I'm "lacking brain power", I play 6 classes (monk, dk, war, paladin, hunter, shaman), at a decently high level in PVE and have been a mythic level raider from wrath till the beginning of WoD almost exclusively on my dk. The way our resources recharge at this point makes it not fun. I've mentioned before that the BoS build in NH functioned fine and I actually really liked it. The way it functions now is frustrating and it has nothing to do with BoS itself, it's the fact that you're sitting around for almost a full third of the fight with no resources.


Right there. You do not even know the mechanics of your class that you want drastic changes for. Death's advance prevents knock backs. So "being knocked back by some boss ability" does not exist when you save it for the right moment.

Mythic level raiding didn't exist until WoD, so again you don't know what you're talking about. Finally, maybe if you spent more time on one class you would actually be good.... food for thought.


Ok first of all I said "mythic level" meaning top tier because I didn't want to have to explain that I raided hard mode ulduar, togc, heroic icc, heroic bwd, heroic firelands, heroic DS, heroic tot because I was afk for the first tier in mists, and mythic SoO. I've raided since then occasionally but haven't had the time to raid full mythic for a while. If I had said "heroic level raider" you would have said that my opinion doesn't count because I don't raid mythics. I've seen that kind of garbage before. And no, mythic was actually released the last tier of MoP so you're wrong there.

Secondly, yes I'm aware that deaths advance prevents knockback. It's not up 100% of the time, and occasionally you get hit by an ability when it's not up. Again though, that's not my main issue. You can literally look up statistics about downtime during fights and dk's are at or near the top with over 30% downtime on fights. It doesn't matter how good you are at your class, downtime is downtime.

Third, i think you missed the fact that I said I raided "almost exclusively on my dk". I don't raid on 6 toons, I raid on 2 (1 of which I made in legion and is on the opposite faction on a different server to my main. I made him specifically to hang out with old guildies from cata and don't raid every week on him) and do lfr and mythic 5 mans on the rest.

I'm by no means the best dk in the world, obviously. I haven't raided seriously in years because I just don't have the time to dedicate to the game anymore and most of my friends from back in the day have left the game. At this point it doesn't matter that I was ranked in wrath and cata in the top 100 on several fights because the class has changed, but I was at one point near the top numbers wise. I hit around 13-15k on average with 355 gear right now, just as a reference. Whether that's good or bad is up to you, but I think I know how to play. Stop with that nonsense. Not everyone needs to be a perfect player to being up valid points.

As an added point, why are you being so antagonistic here? I'm not trying to destroy the class, I'm looking to help suggest ways of making it better. You can debate me on the issues but going straight to "l2 play noob" is an invalid argument.
I'm being antagonistic b/c it's people like you who destroy a working class.

Down time is not nearly as bad as you claim it to be. Going over my parses and i do not see where I am not actively doing something for any period longer than a second unless I am pooling resources for a BoS......

The ONLY thing I would like to see added to Frost DK's is the T19 4 set bonus baked into Rime so we can get 6 RP when we use it. This would smooth out rotation so much with BoS...
11/09/2018 12:32 PMPosted by Ghannon
I'm being antagonistic b/c it's people like you who destroy a working class.

Down time is not nearly as bad as you claim it to be. Going over my parses and i do not see where I am not actively doing something for any period longer than a second unless I am pooling resources for a BoS......


What exactly am I saying that is going to destroy this class? Higher rune regen? Maybe less time between attacks? A little more damage balance? Maybe tuning a few abilities and replacing ones that nobody uses?

Edit: I like your idea of the t19 bonus being added baseline. That would do a lot actually.
11/09/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Nargìl
11/09/2018 12:32 PMPosted by Ghannon
I'm being antagonistic b/c it's people like you who destroy a working class.

Down time is not nearly as bad as you claim it to be. Going over my parses and i do not see where I am not actively doing something for any period longer than a second unless I am pooling resources for a BoS......


What exactly am I saying that is going to destroy this class? Higher rune regen? Maybe less time between attacks? A little more damage balance? Maybe tuning a few abilities and replacing ones that nobody uses?


He is only seeing the 20% damage nerf on BoS and judging it off that. The ideas that everyone here has suggested will smooth out the gameplay to a degree that everyone can enjoy. Besides a nerf to autos, frost fever and BoS, what have we really changed that would harm the BoS playstyle?

Suggestions that would change our gameplay for the better;

1.) Soul Reaper be added to our kit, so that we can get an extra dot and 2 runes every 45 secs.
2.) HoW with a 30-sec cd be baseline, so that we have 2 runes and 25 runic power on demand.
3.) Talents that buff both.
4.) The removal of PoF to smooth out gameplay and unbottle our most important stat.
5.) A raid buff that increases the raids damage and provides extra healing. (You can thank Antaris for that one).
6.) A buff to Empowered Rune Weapon and Runic Empowerment.

If you don't realize that we are trying to help your playstyle even more Ghannon, I don't know what to tell you. I support Frost Death Knight and love the class, plain and simple. And you know what is great about these changes? They will still be completely skill based.

Your idea for the T19 would be a great addition to the list.
If they were to remove PoF what would you replace it with?

Me personally I'd remove PoF and BoS. BoS is just not fun to have the largest chunk of your DPS tied to 1 CD every 2 minutes. I'd make Horn of Winter and Obliterate the center pieces of the spec and build the spec out from there with these 2 abilities in mind.

Some example talents being, 1 talent that gives 1 extra charge of Horn and increase rune regen. 1 talent that perhaps increases Oblits duration by 1 sec in some way OR the artifact talent that reduced Frostwyrms CD except it reduces Oblits CD.
11/09/2018 02:25 PMPosted by Shaurayssa
If they were to remove PoF what would you replace it with?


As discussed, if PoF was removed, I want Blizzard to add Soul Reaper to our kit and make HoW baseline with a 30 sec CD that is off the GCD.

Also, I added the talent The will of Frostmourne as a counter balance. In the beta, when they removed PoF, they didn't add anything to make up for the pruning. I didn't want to make that mistake.

11/09/2018 02:25 PMPosted by Shaurayssa

Me personally I'd remove PoF and BoS. BoS is just not fun to have the largest chunk of your DPS tied to 1 CD every 2 minutes.


I think removing BoS would be a bad idea. Dulling the damage down a bit is all that most of us ask for. Maybe adding a way to decrease BoS cooldown or making baseline would change things in a positive way.
i'd give anything to be able to play frost with 2-handers again.
I just want my damn abilities back...

I have played every single class and most specs consistently the past few years and class design has just become so ridiculously lame, slow, and mind numbing.

The devs working on classes have no idea what they're doing and it shows.

My 6 year old nephew tells me that WoW is boring to play because of class design.
11/09/2018 03:20 PMPosted by Vitálus
11/09/2018 02:25 PMPosted by Shaurayssa
If they were to remove PoF what would you replace it with?


As discussed, if PoF was removed, I want Blizzard to add Soul Reaper to our kit and make HoW baseline with a 30 sec CD that is off the GCD.

Also, I added the talent The will of Frostmourne as a counter balance. In the beta, when they removed PoF, they didn't add anything to make up for the pruning. I didn't want to make that mistake.

11/09/2018 02:25 PMPosted by Shaurayssa

Me personally I'd remove PoF and BoS. BoS is just not fun to have the largest chunk of your DPS tied to 1 CD every 2 minutes.


I think removing BoS would be a bad idea. Dulling the damage down a bit is all that most of us ask for. Maybe adding a way to decrease BoS cooldown or making baseline would change things in a positive way.


I dont think removing BoS would be a bad idea. Matter of fact I think it is necessary in order to move the spec forward. BoS exists in 1 of 2 states. It either dominates the tier or it is never taken in any game mode. If it dominates the tier then people scream for it to be left alone and if it is lacking then nobody really cares [which is true of all talents] but this talent is either hot !@#$ or hot trash and just needs to be delt with.
11/09/2018 05:03 PMPosted by Yura
i'd give anything to be able to play frost with 2-handers again.


That's why I made a talent that allows the ability to use them and add some power too. However, many in the community don't feel the same towards 2H Frost, so I try not to push my luck too hard.

11/09/2018 05:45 PMPosted by Faraya
I just want my damn abilities back...

I have played every single class and most specs consistently the past few years and class design has just become so ridiculously lame, slow, and mind numbing.

The devs working on classes have no idea what they're doing and it shows.

My 6 year old nephew tells me that WoW is boring to play because of class design.


I believe that after 16+ years, sometime it just takes a fresh look from the outside in. Blizzard knows things are bad right now for classes and they are trying. This thread is to help push them in the right direction for Frost Death Knight. I will agree gameplay is stale.

11/09/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Shaurayssa

I dont think removing BoS would be a bad idea. Matter of fact I think it is necessary in order to move the spec forward. BoS exists in 1 of 2 states. It either dominates the tier or it is never taken in any game mode. If it dominates the tier then people scream for it to be left alone and if it is lacking then nobody really cares [which is true of all talents] but this talent is either hot !@#$ or hot trash and just needs to be delt with.


Then the solution is simple, we make it baseline. For me, BoS is the most Frost ability we have. So we need to figure out how to make it work.
Bump for notice
I dont view BoS as the "most frost" ability we have. I'd say that goes to Remorseless Winter which became kindve synonymous with the the identity of the spec thanks to the LK chasing you down in the 5 man icc dungeon while having it on.

Making BoS baseline would create another problem. Same problem Frostwyrm suffers from. Its either worth pressing or its trash. Once again I strongly believe that the only way the spec moves forward is to torch it and move on.

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