Passive Damage Design. Why?

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
I would really like an explanation of why blizzard made auto attacks and passive damage, like dots, the top sources of damage.

DKs are clearly the worst offenders, but I've noticed passive damage is a big part of class design with other classes as well.

I really don't understand this design philosophy.

I don't want DK to be the sole focus of this thread because other classes have this issue too, but DK is my main so I'm speaking from that perspective.

FDK:
Obliterate, Howling Blast, and Frost Strike do not feel impactful. I feel more like a rogue should, not a slow moving Juggernaut. Obliterate does nothing of the sort. It doesn't feel good to see rogues Eviscerate hitting harder than a plate sword wielding class using "obliterate!" I miss seeing health bars getting chunked down. FDK isn't supposed to be a melee warlock.

UHDK:
Why even have a 2h weapon? Melee, DoTs, and Pet damage are our main damage abilities. I have this huge sword equipped but Festering strike and Scourge Strike do not hit for anything relative to other damage sources. UHDK is more of a rot class so I don't expect to see players or NPCs to get their health chunked down like FDK but they should still hit hard with their active melee abilities.

This design has a negative impact on both pvp and pve though the outcry from the pve community is lessened because dps parses look okay.

Please explain why you think this is fun and makes sense?

Thanks
"How can we make mythic raids, mythic+ and leveling content take longer?" -Ion

"We could make auto attacks and dots deal more damage than most of their abilities!" -former combat designer.

"Perfect. Then it will trinkle down to everyone."
Personally I'm not a fan of this design at all because its very inconsistent. There are some classes that have multiple abilities that excel beyond their melee white damage while others are lucky to have 1 (or some cases none) which do.

I get this boils down to a numbers pass and tuning issue to some degree, but the overall design philosophy behind it just seems a bit asinine.
Agreed OP. Those 3k oblit crits feel horrible. My warrior in blues crits for 20k sometimes...wish they'd move some damage back onto our main abilities.
People tend to complain a lot about FDK downtime. I guess those white hits and DoTs are there to fill in this downtime periods you guys have.

Would you guys rather have the immobile juggernaut playstyle, though? Close to no mobility, but you can't be consistently stopped or CCed. You hit in big intervals, but when you do, you hit hard.

I particularly find that playstyle interesting, but people complain so much about mobility that I find it hard to be implemented.

That's what I imagine a FDK to be: Very slow (no mobility), but can pull the target towards you and slow them from afar. Don't hit often, but when you do, you hit HARD. It's kind of silly seeing FDK being locked to dual wielding only, specially when Obliterate's Icon used to (don't know if it still is) a big ducking two-handed axe.

I may have gone a bit off topic here, but at this point in time, the immovable juggernaut would really be a breath of fresh air to the game. So many leaps, charges, teleports and dashes nowadays that it becomes hard to balance things for an immobile class.

For PVE I think it would be fine, but PVP would not feel that great, specially since things are balanced around 3v3s and that's the main stage for PVP that Blizzard has in mind.

In a Battleground though, I can see that being a lot of fun. Everyone being desparate not to get close do a DK, or else you get a massive axe to your face that just chunks your HP for like 20~30%.
PvP most likely. It's been ruining the game since the beginning.

It's easier to have damage spread out than hard hitting burst.
10/24/2018 02:41 PMPosted by Xukon
It's easier to have damage spread out than hard hitting burst.


If only this was true for all classes.
10/24/2018 02:41 PMPosted by Xukon
PvP most likely. It's been ruining the game since the beginning.

It's easier to have damage spread out than hard hitting burst.


It is definitely the reason why so much damage across all melee specs has been shifted to auto-attacks. Ranged were getting annoyed with melee being able to do the damage they could at range.

The problem is that passive gameplay is not gameplay. I'm actually quite fine with unholy's damage being DoT-centric because that's how it's always been, but the problem is that there's no gameplay with the DoT like there was in the past. No snapshotting, no SS damage increase, no ebon fever(the old one.) VP is entirely fire-and-forget with no thought, synergy, or gameplay involved. It's just "there."

I also do not like how PvP talents exist, meaning only a portion of your class is available if you don't want to PvP. If I want to use AMZ in PvE, why can't I? Oh, right, because all PvE encounters are now designed around brainlessly trying to top meters while wiggling around to show how leet those reflexes are. I thought class utility was supposed to come back this expansion.,
With the reduction of secondaries power and scaling, primary stats tends to overinflate autoattacks, specialy with ppl stacking haste on most specs.
For dks is just a matter of mastery and every ability being undertuned.
The reason they shifted damage to auto attacks and passive dots is the same reason they have made almost every single change in bfa...

They want to lower the gap between skilled players and noobs. They want their mass casual subscriber base to feel less crappy when they lose by a ton on the damage meter. Even baddies can auto attack.
bring back 2h frost and give FDK more abilities.
10/24/2018 02:41 PMPosted by Xukon
PvP most likely. It's been ruining the game since the beginning.

It's easier to have damage spread out than hard hitting burst.


Yep those +70% dampenings are amazing games.
10/24/2018 07:31 PMPosted by Lahgtah
It is definitely the reason why so much damage across all melee specs has been shifted to auto-attacks. Ranged were getting annoyed with melee being able to do the damage they could at range.


Funny, because DH,Warriors,Rogues, Enhance Sham and Feral didn't get that memo. I have a Rogue/DH, both do more damage in one global than my DK will do with 5. I'm not trying to be snide, but those are just the facts. Every other melee has better utility and defensive cd's as well as mobility.

I have to say it bothers me that my leather wearers are more durable in pve and pvp than a plate wearer. Slow moving and hard hitting is a pipe dream this expac same as it was in Legion.

The team really missed the mark with the tuning on UDK/FDK in pvp, UDK is death of a thousand cuts playstyle which I'm starting to hate a bit because it doesn't seem like the team can balance it properly. Outside pve gear the spec has been awful for years now in terms of global damage. The last time Death Coil felt good to use in pvp was in MOP. Necrotic Strike was also a huge single target gain in that expac.
10/25/2018 03:48 AMPosted by Razeal
10/24/2018 07:31 PMPosted by Lahgtah
It is definitely the reason why so much damage across all melee specs has been shifted to auto-attacks. Ranged were getting annoyed with melee being able to do the damage they could at range.


Funny, because DH,Warriors,Rogues, Enhance Sham and Feral didn't get that memo. I have a Rogue/DH, both do more damage in one global than my DK will do with 5. I'm not trying to be snide, but those are just the facts. Every other melee has better utility and defensive cd's as well as mobility.

I have to say it bothers me that my leather wearers are more durable in pve and pvp than a plate wearer. Slow moving and hard hitting is a pipe dream this expac same as it was in Legion.

The team really missed the mark with the tuning on UDK/FDK in pvp, UDK is death of a thousand cuts playstyle which I'm starting to hate a bit because it doesn't seem like the team can balance it properly. Outside pve gear the spec has been awful for years now in terms of global damage. The last time Death Coil felt good to use in pvp was in MOP. Necrotic Strike was also a huge single target gain in that expac.


I leveled this DH toon just to see if DK felt as bad as I was experiencing. It blew my mind how much better DH functions.

I love the theme of DK and I've invested a lot of time on my dk so I dont think I'd reroll another main. I'd probably just quit. Before that happens I am going to give the 8.1 changes a shot.

I am hoping they move damage to Obliterate, Frost Strike, and Howling blast. I hope they keep developing our defensive tool kit, and bake in some utility like Dark Sim (which has a high skill cap. Crazy its not baseline.) for 8.1.

I started playing and gearing up my SWTOR juggernaut because how uninterested I am to log in lately.
They really, really want esports to be a thing for WoW.

So GCD changes go in to 'make each choice meaningful' which is PR talk for allowing spectators feel like they're following along what's happening.

But if all damage is coming from only those meaningful choices, ie: active skills on the GCD, it becomes overly obvious how badly Blizz has nerfed the game just to make it a viable vehicle for Activision's MLG buyout.

So Auto-attacks and passive damage is upped to cover that, lowering time-to-kill and obfuscating (poorly) the deliberate BS Blizz has done to combat to try and justify requirements handed from parent company leadership.
with the constant pruning + GCD changes, i think DK's got hit way harder than other classes.
no presences, all deathrune and a build-spend play style popping wound like a mongo (which make it so boring atleast for me) with your AUTO-Spread outbreak dot BS is so not unholy. the rotation isnt that much fulfilling as before.

maybe if icy touch/plague strike are still in the game, constantly maintaining those dots, it might out damage the melee swings.
there is nothing you can bring to the raid/dungeons like before -
horn of winter raid buff/hungering cold for frost
AMZ for unholy
Because they're lazy af.
10/25/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Mohgra
They really, really want esports to be a thing for WoW.

So GCD changes go in to 'make each choice meaningful' which is PR talk for allowing spectators feel like they're following along what's happening.

But if all damage is coming from only those meaningful choices, ie: active skills on the GCD, it becomes overly obvious how badly Blizz has nerfed the game just to make it a viable vehicle for Activision's MLG buyout.

So Auto-attacks and passive damage is upped to cover that, lowering time-to-kill and obfuscating (poorly) the deliberate BS Blizz has done to combat to try and justify requirements handed from parent company leadership.


It would be nice if they showed what talents and Azerite traits teams are using. That would help more than these "meaningful" GCD changes when it comes to eSports.

It would really help if the devs explained why there is so much passive damage in the game!
They've abandoned the notion of actually making the game fun.

Everything from this point forward is so its easier to get new developers to make things for the system. All of the BFA changes were QOL changes for their workflow and development teams at the cost of the consumer.
10/25/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Mohgra
They really, really want esports to be a thing for WoW.


Good point, and I understand what you're getting at in the rest of your post. The elephant in the room here is less and less people tune in to the arena tournaments every year, because things are too scripted. The global change just adds another layer of scripted play.

There is a difference between people being uninterested and unable to follow something. WoW wasn't particularly hard to grasp in Wrath; however if you have no interest in something you wouldn't really bother to find out all that much about it.

When people tell me their wives/girlfriends have a hard time following wow arena my first thought is 'they probably don't care and are being nice/supportive of you liking something.' Same with buddies watching esports together, one may claim not to understand something but that's likely a cover for not being interested.

There should be a lot of dynamics at play, people should be encouraged to learn more about the game (if interested) after watching the highest level play that we see in the tournaments.

Lets face facts; when you are really really interested in something you find out about it. Because you are interested. Making something boring and watered down especially with this whole new level of dampening play we're seeing so far isn't doing any favors to anyone.

10/30/2018 05:00 PMPosted by Nariala
They've abandoned the notion of actually making the game fun.

Everything from this point forward is so its easier to get new developers to make things for the system. All of the BFA changes were QOL changes for their workflow and development teams at the cost of the consumer.


It really feels that way.

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