BM PvE DPS too low passed ~iLvl 370

Hunter
I just had to say in case any BLUE types are lurking about....

Pay attention to BM DPS at higher content and iLvls. It was overnerfed with the damage nerfs to pet, etc, and it is not competitive anymore.

BM is HORRIBLY underpowered in PvP, and I consider it not viable for Arena except under very specific gimmick comps that max out long before truly high level play.

Additionally, i have found it to be too weak in M+ on 10+ runs, and now play Survival 100% of the time because of lack of performance on BM. By performance, I am speaking specifically about DPS output. BM can't keep up with Rogues, Demon Hunters, Balance Druids, Mages, Warriors, etc. It just doesn't do well enough when very well geared.

* BUFF BM *

Revert the changes which broke the class. It might be OK for casual leveling, but at high end of performance play, it just doesn't scale well enough and the problem will only get worse withhout some attention.

thx
The only change that's happened is a 5% nerf the first week before Mythic was even released.

I can see off logs alone that you're not playing the spec optimally, as your opener is wrong, you're heavily overcasting Cobra Shot while not hitting Kill Command on CD, on top of very low 3 stack Frenzy on your pet. You don't pot, you don't flask, I'm not exactly sure what kind of performance you're looking for off minimal levels of effort put out when raiding. If you're not going to put in the things that are needed to perform well, you shouldn't expect to put out good numbers.

M+ as well, BM isn't bursty enough to keep up with specs that have heavy burst like DH and Shrouded Suffocation stacked Assassination Rogues in low keys, their main use is their utility and consistent damage which is fine as you go up in difficulty where burst doesn't outright kill a pack before others can do damage to it.
I do pot and flask, and any parse that you have was from some pug. I dont have a raid guild and do not regularly raid anything. I run some M+ with friends. I also don't play the BM spec anymore because Survival really does perform better.

You're kind of a jerk for coming around telling people they put in minimal effort. You don't know that, and it's an elitist a-hole thing to say.
11/12/2018 05:44 PMPosted by Gimia
The only change that's happened is a 5% nerf the first week before Mythic was even released.

I can see off logs alone that you're not playing the spec optimally, as your opener is wrong, you're heavily overcasting Cobra Shot while not hitting Kill Command on CD, on top of very low 3 stack Frenzy on your pet. You don't pot, you don't flask, I'm not exactly sure what kind of performance you're looking for off minimal levels of effort put out when raiding. If you're not going to put in the things that are needed to perform well, you shouldn't expect to put out good numbers.

M+ as well, BM isn't bursty enough to keep up with specs that have heavy burst like DH and Shrouded Suffocation stacked Assassination Rogues in low keys, their main use is their utility and consistent damage which is fine as you go up in difficulty where burst doesn't outright kill a pack before others can do damage to it.


Thanks for saving me the trouble of looking at his logs.

There are literally 5+ topics a day about how "bad" BM is and it's always from people who are grey parses, or topics about how we are mid pack and it's time to reroll as if rerolling will stop you from grey parsing. You will just now grey parse on whatever it is you rerolled to.

People need to get better at their class and rotations in a mythic environment and take responsibility for playing their class at a level far below even average. It's as if people always want to point the blame into something that's not them.

Especially you OP, how are you even going to make a topic and not even pre pot or flask or have a good buff...come on man, wake up!!!
No idea what you're talking about. I don't have any BM gray parse.

I didn't say anything about rerolling, I love hunter.

BM does suck in PvP.

It's pretty toxic, the both of you with your elitist attitudes. If you're so good, and a master of reading logs and gauging people's effort level, you'd think maybe you would share your expertise on how to be better then.

But no, trashing posters and insulting people is more fun. I should have known better.

You'll know I was right when they buff BM in future. It wasn't just a 5% nerf, MANY things got nerfed from bestial wrath to dire beast talents to pet attack damage. If you disagree, thats fine, but the immediate lunge to attack a poster about their credz is kind of appalling.
11/12/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Andii
No idea what you're talking about. I don't have any BM gray parse.

I didn't say anything about rerolling, I love hunter.

BM does suck in PvP.

It's pretty toxic, the both of you with your elitist attitudes. If you're so good, and a master of reading logs and gauging people's effort level, you'd think maybe you would share your expertise on how to be better then.

But no, trashing posters and insulting people is more fun. I should have known better.

You'll know I was right when they buff BM in future. It wasn't just a 5% nerf, MANY things got nerfed from bestial wrath to dire beast talents to pet attack damage. If you disagree, thats fine, but the immediate lunge to attack a poster about their credz is kind of appalling.


Both your mythic kills are grey and you parse grey and green in heroic... come on man...

Survival isn't any better than BM and its melee, but again even as survival you're grey parsing. I havent gone through any of your logs but if you're parsing that low it's a lot of reasons.

You're basically playing your hunter at 20% of its capacity, then making a post saying they are bad....
11/12/2018 05:50 PMPosted by Andii
I do pot and flask, and any parse that you have was from some pug. I dont have a raid guild and do not regularly raid anything. I run some M+ with friends. I also don't play the BM spec anymore because Survival really does perform better.

You're kind of a jerk for coming around telling people they put in minimal effort. You don't know that, and it's an elitist a-hole thing to say.

I'm blunt as a response as these forums are regularly filled with people complaining about low performance wanting buffs when they don't play the spec properly to begin with. Sort of a bad habit of mine really and should be better about it.

https://wowanalyzer.com/report/CJ6jk27NHLhG8ndr/20-Heroic+Mythrax+-+Kill+(7:20)/160-Andii

This is from the Mythrax you did over the weekend on Saturday as an example. Even using something as simple as Legion flask and Prolonged Power pots is something to add more damage and fairly cheap at this point as they're from the previous expnsion.

Your opener as seen is Cobra, Barbed, KC, BW, Chim, Crows, along with not popping Aspect until over halfway through your BW duration which has no flow or reason to it. The proper opener with Primal Instinct is Pre-cast BW, Barbed, Crows, Aspect, Barbed, KC, Chim, Cobra, Cobra, KC, Barbed to get full effect from Primal Instinct's extra Barbed Shot stack.

You can see as well your CDR efficiency for Cobra Shot is 44%, which means you're effectively over the fight each time you pressed Cobra only gained .44 seconds off your KC over the fight and wasted nearly a full minute worth of KC CDR due to overcasting Cobra over a 7 minute fight. Don't just hit buttons on GCD, BM doesn't have a generator that allows spamming so there are times where hitting nothing at all is a DPS gain as it's more efficient focus use and a much lower waste of Cobra's CDR. Only cast Cobra if KC's CD is more than ~2.5s away as Cobra reduces the CD of KC by 1 second and the GCD caused by casting Cobra is 1.5s, reduced by haste so times like under bloodlust/heroism it can be quite a bit lower.

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-mastery-hunter-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities

Here is the Icy Veins guide as well for a more detailed description for playing BM. Learning what you're doing wrong and fixing those mistakes is the best way to make DPS gains and perform at a better level.
I've only been in a Mythic raid ONE time. LOL, what? I don't see any gray parse in Heroic either. The only raids I ever did were in pugs this xpack, I am in a dead guild and have no team.

Survival destroys BM utterly in PvP. UTTERLY. If you think otherwise I'm not going to argue with you, I don't need to convince you.

BM doesn't suck in PvE, but *IT IS NOT scaling* as well as other classes. They are pulling away. It will get worse, wait for the next raid tier.
@Gimia: Cool tool, thanks for the link. I don't play BM anymore but did for a pug raid because often ppl want ranged over melee.

I find BM almost never has focus issues and you an spam cobra a lot, but I agree it shouldn't edge out better abilities so thanks for the analysis.

I'm gonna check out your link some more. I do however feel other classes are scaling better than BM at high iLvl.

Can I ask you, do you disgaree with that statement?
11/12/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Andii
I've only been in a Mythic raid ONE time. LOL, what? I don't see any gray parse in Heroic either. The only raids I ever did were in pugs this xpack, I am in a dead guild and have no team.

Survival destroys BM utterly in PvP. UTTERLY. If you think otherwise I'm not going to argue with you, I don't need to convince you.

BM doesn't suck in PvE, but *IT IS NOT scaling* as well as other classes. They are pulling away. It will get worse, wait for the next raid tier.


You parsed an 8 on mythic Taloc, you parsed a 23 on mythic mother.
You parsed a 19 on heroic Mythrax and a 21 on Heroic Ghuun...

As pointed out above by Gimia. You are playing your class poorly.

This is a pve thread, who's talking pvp???

You do the same that others do so people like Gimia and I are blunt, we see topics like this all day with people who play their class at 20% capacity and complain how bad it is now.

Bm is fine, you're playing it very very poorly. As mentioned above go to Icy and look up the correct rotation and what you should be doing.
11/12/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Andii
@Gimia: Cool tool, thanks for the link. I don't play BM anymore but did for a pug raid because often ppl want ranged over melee.

I find BM almost never has focus issues and you an spam cobra a lot, but I agree it shouldn't edge out better abilities so thanks for the analysis.

I'm gonna check out your link some more. I do however feel other classes are scaling better than BM at high iLvl.

Can I ask you, do you disgaree with that statement?

Personally BM is pretty middle ground right now, and it only competes with MM as a ranged option for hunters but MM is in a design crisis with a bunch of issues I'm not sure Blizzard will be able to fix without another full rework that 8.1 isn't going to be able to fix. Mostly stating this because technically SV is better than BM as it provides the theoretical highest ST damage in the game right now but SV doesn't compete for a raid or group spot with other ranged hunters, it's competing with other melee that provide much better utility with damage % increases (monk/DH) or an AP buff (warrior) and at least in Mythic as you get to the later fights the current design of Uldir heavily punishes having more than 5 melee and is best to have as little as 3 or less for something like Mythrax.

Scaling though I haven't really noticed anything over the past 2 months of Uldir. Checking over the logs of people within my own guild the DPS gain over the raid has been pretty consistent since the start and I'd say most have gained about the same DPS over the time and no real outliers if you stay consistent and only compare with the same fight over time. I'm somewhat surprised Blizzard has sorta fixed the scaling issues with the massive changes to everybody's ability scaling but this is obviously the first tier so we'll have to see what happens later with the next couple raids if it's truly fixed or not.

If I could I'd play SV for a couple fight as it's fun to change things up periodically but I have to raid call every so often and being ranged makes it much much easier to see what's going on during a fight. Personally though I wish they'd fix MM as I really enjoyed Legion's variant even though the majority of these forums apparently hated it.
@Moonuredps: The OP post talks about PvP.

I pugged a Mythic raid one time, first time I ever saw the bosses or the mechanics, and I wasn't even BM spec. Are you paying attention? This is about BM, I wasn't even playing BM. How did you miss that. I only went to Mythrax and G'huun 1-2 times in a pug. It's almost like you play so much you treat it like a job. Do you have a job? You seriously think that scrutinizing the performance of someone on the first time encounter with a raid boss in a pug is representative of regular play?

I'm nowhere near 20% capacity, you are just an aggressive poster. We have a very similar raider score, look it up champ.
11/12/2018 05:50 PMPosted by Andii
I do pot and flask, and any parse that you have was from some pug. I dont have a raid guild and do not regularly raid anything. I run some M+ with friends. I also don't play the BM spec anymore because Survival really does perform better.

You're kind of a jerk for coming around telling people they put in minimal effort. You don't know that, and it's an elitist a-hole thing to say.


You come to complain about bad dps, and when someone objectively points out things you are doing wrong you call them an !@#$%^-.

Stay classy WoW forums.
@Gimia: Upvoted. Agree with all of what you said, 'cept i feel it is falling behind a bit :D I haven't tried PTR for MM changes but we'll see how it turns out. Maybe it will edge out BM and we will have a new hotness to play around with.

Recommend you try that SV like you said you wanted to, if your team will take you like that (I imagine they would, you seem to kick !@#). It's really nice in M+ too. I liked BM in M+, but after a while SV just started being noticeably better. 3x Melee in M+ often works nice because of the huge number of interrupts. Give it a try!
11/12/2018 06:44 PMPosted by Andii
@Moonuredps: The OP post talks about PvP.

I pugged a Mythic raid one time, first time I ever saw the bosses or the mechanics, and I wasn't even BM spec. Are you paying attention? This is about BM, I wasn't even playing BM. How did you miss that. I only went to Mythrax and G'huun 1-2 times in a pug. It's almost like you play so much you treat it like a job. Do you have a job? You seriously think that scrutinizing the performance of someone on the first time encounter with a raid boss in a pug is representative of regular play?

I'm nowhere near 20% capacity, you are just an aggressive poster. We have a very similar raider score, look it up champ.


Yes I said you are playing your spec at 20% capacity because you were, even if its survival.

We have close to the same logs score?? What???

Your average in mythic is 15.8.
My average in mythic is 63.3.

Your average in heroic is 43.6.
My average in heroic is 91.3.

Your average in normal is 50.3.
My average in normal is 85.0.

We are no where near each other. Again you are complaining about dps but arent even doing your rotation correctly or your opener. I could see making a topic asking for some help, but to skip that and just say BM dps is low....do you not understand how dumb that sounds??
I said BM wasn't scaling as well as other classes and specs. I didn't say its crap DPS.

Also, I said raider score. I didnt say anything about logs. What is wrong with you?

https://www.raider.io/characters/us/sargeras/Moonuredps
794

https://www.raider.io/characters/us/silvermoon/Andii
834

Yes, cling to my first mythic parse in a pug where I died. I can't make it any more clear for you. This post is about BM scaling. Now is your chance to jump in and tell me more about how i suck and you are awesome.
11/12/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Andii
I said BM wasn't scaling as well as other classes and specs. I didn't say its crap DPS.

Also, I said raider score. I didnt say anything about logs. What is wrong with you?

https://www.raider.io/characters/us/sargeras/Moonuredps
794

https://www.raider.io/characters/us/silvermoon/Andii
834

Yes, cling to my first mythic parse in a pug where I died. I can't make it any more clear for you. This post is about BM scaling. Now is your chance to jump in and tell me more about how i suck and you are awesome.


Not really trying to bash you, just tired of posts like this when usually the player who made the post is the one who is failing...

We were going over logs, raider.io doesnt really say much in terms of how well you are playing it just shows you a score based off how many mythic+ you are doing on time, which by my score you can tell i dont really do them....

I didnt just point out mythic logs i said your heroic logs also.
I find it hilarious that this guy is so misguided he states "BM is useless in +10 keys and over, so I switched to SV".

Dude, the world's first +20 and +21 keys were cleared by a BM Hunter. At the highest level of play it's considered a fantastic class. SV on the other hand has a terribly weak AoE rotation, so on high keys your lack of AoE dps is actively holding your team down as far as the timer goes. SV is solid in raiding but really bad in M+.
OP was chasing likes, didnt get them, changed his argument over and over, relies on subjective claims with no numbers to back them up, and continues to ignore helpful feedback. Typical day on WoW forums.

The impressive part is people are still helping him. There is hope for humanity indeed.
One thing the OP said is true. The nerfs to BM hurt severely in PvP. There is no denying that a BM hunter in it's current state does pathetic damage, has low survivability, and pet AI as well as LoS is horrible.

Kiting as a method in PvP is basically non-existent for a BM hunter now with the loss of skills such a deterrence and the ridiculous amount of gap closers and snares that other classes have in abundance. Since most of our damage comes from autoshot now kiting would be highly ineffective even if it did still exist.

Spamming Kill Command doesn't do anything half the time in PvP, even if the pet is up on top of the enemy's crack. The other half of the time the pet seems to run at 30% speed even with Dash used. Even a small bump in the terrain leads to LoS issues on commands and mending.

The nerfs BM got were over the top and un-needed. The nerfs to pet damage almost equal all the damage given from Aspect of the Beast, one of our friggin lvl 100 talents. That is godd@mn insane. That isn't even the nerfs that most people are complaining about.

I'm tired of being balanced and nerfed based on the numbers put out by the top 3% ranking players. I certainly admire them and would love to learn to play as well as them but truth be told the other 97% of us will never be as good and the game shouldn't be balanced around that.

TLDR: BM sucks in PvP. The nerfs ruined the spec in PvP.

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