Classic is too easy for 2019 playerbase

Classic Discussion
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11/13/2018 08:07 PMPosted by Matcauthon
It's harder because a single mispull can and will kill you.
It's harder because mobs are an actual threat to you.
It's harder because you aren't superman any more doing oodles of damage and easily pulling 4 to 5 mobs at once with no issues.
Let's put it this way.
It's faster to level to 120 in live then it is to level to 60 in vanilla.

I think what so many people fail to understand is that they rely heavily on the concept of the mechanics of the npc rather than the mechanics of your class and the weight of the numbers.

Like you do not have easy mode spam 4+ abilities in order a,b,c,d, and then avoid that ground stuff, run out of that cast time melee attack. It's just THEY HIT HARD.
I don't know why people use longer to finish as harder to finish. The mobs aren't these heavily scripted fights they don't do anything different then what they do now in retail. The difference is they require patience it requires you methodically calculate your pulls and to be aware of your environment and that doesn't require you to do anything different then simplify take your time and pay attention. You may not be able to run into an area and grab a ton of mobs and aoe them down with no concern for mana or health but it doesn't mean the learning curve is this huge jump it would take anyone 5 minutes in the starting zone to adjust and realize they need to go slower and be more conscious of their abilities and weakness maybe for some this may be hard but for anyone who has ever played any form of MMO outside of wow are already use to these things.

If people don't make it to 60 it wont be because omg these mobs are soo hard I just cant kill them, or omg I don't know how to kill them or omg I keep dying, it will be because they don't want to invest the time required to level to 60 or the time required to make gold to get items etc


Sounds to me like one is harder than the other.
It was never difficult. It only required persistence and basic social skills.
The difficulty of the game is not simply defined by the ability to present one's skill in a set of acknowledging the mechanics of a fight and working around them alone. The difficulty of Vanilla WoW was presented in multiple formats from the social challenges to acquiring the aid you needed to liquid knowledge assets that forced the player to think of the scenario before them.

Simply defining difficulty in a single set aspect of the game like we see today in Current WoW is where people blind themselves into thinking that the mechanics behind Vanilla WoW make it less challenging. Whereas it is the unseen mechanics of the game being an open world that requires you to put in the effort to get things going that will be the true tests of skill. Not the simple skill of using a set of abilities in an order while following the mechanics of the opponent but the skills that make us human.

That is the true difficulty of Vanilla WoW.
(/thread)
GET JAY WILSON ON THE CASE. TAKE THE DIFFICULTY AND DOUBLE IT. I WANT TO SEE RAID TRASH ONE SHOTTING TANKS WITH RANDOM ABILITIES EVERY TIME THE RAID WIPES OR THE RAID RESETS.
11/13/2018 08:07 PMPosted by Matcauthon
11/13/2018 08:01 PMPosted by Slappypappy
I don't know why people use longer to finish as harder to finish. The mobs aren't these heavily scripted fights they don't do anything different then what they do now in retail. The difference is they require patience it requires you methodically calculate your pulls and to be aware of your environment and that doesn't require you to do anything different then simplify take your time and pay attention. You may not be able to run into an area and grab a ton of mobs and aoe them down with no concern for mana or health but it doesn't mean the learning curve is this huge jump it would take anyone 5 minutes in the starting zone to adjust and realize they need to go slower and be more conscious of their abilities and weakness maybe for some this may be hard but for anyone who has ever played any form of MMO outside of wow are already use to these things.

If people don't make it to 60 it wont be because omg these mobs are soo hard I just cant kill them, or omg I don't know how to kill them or omg I keep dying, it will be because they don't want to invest the time required to level to 60 or the time required to make gold to get items etc


It's harder because a single mispull can and will kill you.
It's harder because mobs are an actual threat to you.
It's harder because you aren't superman any more doing oodles of damage and easily pulling 4 to 5 mobs at once with no issues.
Let's put it this way.
It's faster to level to 120 in live then it is to level to 60 in vanilla.


Oh I agree getting to level 60 will take much longer then to 120 what I am saying is my ability to play the class I may choose wont change I will still know how to play my class I still know how to control the tempo of my game. It wont take me any longer to understand how to play then it does now. I just wont be able to get things done at the fast pace I am accustom to, but it wont take me longer to learn it. Now I played in vanilla so I know what I am getting into but like I said unless someone never played a game outside of recent modern wow most people will be like me it will take them no time to understand and learn how to play the vanilla way.
11/13/2018 08:13 PMPosted by Skjaldbjorn
I don't know why people use longer to finish as harder to finish. The mobs aren't these heavily scripted fights they don't do anything different then what they do now in retail. The difference is they require patience it requires you methodically calculate your pulls and to be aware of your environment and that doesn't require you to do anything different then simplify take your time and pay attention. You may not be able to run into an area and grab a ton of mobs and aoe them down with no concern for mana or health but it doesn't mean the learning curve is this huge jump it would take anyone 5 minutes in the starting zone to adjust and realize they need to go slower and be more conscious of their abilities and weakness maybe for some this may be hard but for anyone who has ever played any form of MMO outside of wow are already use to these things.

If people don't make it to 60 it wont be because omg these mobs are soo hard I just cant kill them, or omg I don't know how to kill them or omg I keep dying, it will be because they don't want to invest the time required to level to 60 or the time required to make gold to get items etc


Sounds to me like one is harder than the other.


However not in a general sense. For some people the item you put in bold may be hard, but that has to do more with the individual person then the game, some people just don't have the patience or the ability to focus outside of the tunnel vision of go go go and be able to take it down a notch. The problem is many people are generalizing that oh vanilla WILL be harder just because its vanilla when the truth is the game will be harder for some due to their own limitation to be able to adjust to the pace of how the game is meant to be played or adjust to the tempo that in vanilla is basically slow and steady wins the race.
So at what point does time investment become worth it if it's such a massive inconvenience for the player to have to pay attention to what they're doing as they progress?

"Oh this game isn't hard, it just takes me longer to kill this enemy. It's not hard, I just don't want to take the time to carefully plan my movements so I don't die."

"The game isn't hard, I just don't want to take the time to kill these three enemies, it takes too long."

"The game isn't hard, it just takes too long to kill these 15 enemies and I just don't have the time to do that."

"It takes too long to kill these 50 mobs. The game's not hard, my class plays the same, but I should just be able to kill 100 mobs and once and finish the quest in seconds because I just don't have the time."

At what point DOES the time investment matter? If it is such a massive inconvenience for you to take time to do anything, then it sounds to me like you don't even enjoy the game and should go do something you actually DO enjoy instead?

I swear very nearly every complaint or criticism I see leveled towards the classic design philosophy sounds to me like a variation of: "I hate playing this game and just want to get it over with as quickly as possible."
It's kind of funny how people say, "vanilla was/will be easy" and compare mechanics. Sure, the mechanics were easy. That wasn't the difficult part. We also can't compare the entirety of vanilla to a minority of hardcore players who raid the hard content - the vast, vast majority of players do not.
11/13/2018 06:48 PMPosted by Härländ
11/13/2018 06:33 PMPosted by Hopera
I'm not big on gameplay changes, really I'm not but...

The game is just too easy for today's standards. I really think some of these raids and instances need a serious increase in difficulty. MC is a joke, most of the tier sets are unbalanced,

and a lot of seasoned players agree but fear the toxic Classic community to speak up on this issue.


The problems are not directly related to the raid instances them selves, but the changes that were made over time that trivialized raids like Molten Core, Ony and BWL.

AQ is even "Nerfed" by its original 1.9 / 1.10 standards.

The following are why the raids got easy.

Blizzard added a new component to Taunt in patch 1.11 to make it more powerful.
Blizzard reduced the rage cost of shield slam to 20 from 30 and caused it to scale a little too well post 1.11 update.

This in turn allowed DPS to go full tilt with out any worry of pulling aggro. Previous to 1.11 threat management was a key component in Vanilla raid, and all the raids BEFORE Naxxramas are designed for threat management game play.

You can buff the raids all you like, but failing to fix the threat management issue leaves the raids in EZ mode territory.

That 1.11 play style is not representitive of the majority of Vanilla WoW and should be discarded for the original style where threat matters.

Some players will QQ over this, it's unavoidable because they want to play a fury warrior and dominate the DPS meter with out thinking, instead button mashing their way to victory.

However, consider this to you folks who QQ over threat based PVE; we have the rest of our natural lives to clear the raid content, there is no race, and there is no expansion on the horizon 2 years from now, so take your darn time and learn to actually play Vanilla the way it was originally intended instead of the abomination that is 1.11+ game play.


Very well said. And I agree 100%.

The earlier raids should be rebalanced and some of the tier sets needs to be looked at to match the changes.
11/13/2018 09:20 PMPosted by Hopera
11/13/2018 06:48 PMPosted by Härländ
...

The problems are not directly related to the raid instances them selves, but the changes that were made over time that trivialized raids like Molten Core, Ony and BWL.

AQ is even "Nerfed" by its original 1.9 / 1.10 standards.

The following are why the raids got easy.

Blizzard added a new component to Taunt in patch 1.11 to make it more powerful.
Blizzard reduced the rage cost of shield slam to 20 from 30 and caused it to scale a little too well post 1.11 update.

This in turn allowed DPS to go full tilt with out any worry of pulling aggro. Previous to 1.11 threat management was a key component in Vanilla raid, and all the raids BEFORE Naxxramas are designed for threat management game play.

You can buff the raids all you like, but failing to fix the threat management issue leaves the raids in EZ mode territory.

That 1.11 play style is not representitive of the majority of Vanilla WoW and should be discarded for the original style where threat matters.

Some players will QQ over this, it's unavoidable because they want to play a fury warrior and dominate the DPS meter with out thinking, instead button mashing their way to victory.

However, consider this to you folks who QQ over threat based PVE; we have the rest of our natural lives to clear the raid content, there is no race, and there is no expansion on the horizon 2 years from now, so take your darn time and learn to actually play Vanilla the way it was originally intended instead of the abomination that is 1.11+ game play.


Very well said. And I agree 100%.

The earlier raids should be rebalanced and some of the tier sets needs to be looked at to match the changes.

100% Agreed.
Being easy doesn't mean its bad. I don't know where this ego myth came from. Easy games can be fun, and hard games can be fun.
1-15 takes a speed runner in Vanilla 1.5hrs assuming the best conditions (ie no one killing your mobs).
Retail tyou can reach 15 in minutes.
So lvling is WAAAAAAAAAY different.

Dungeons
Vanilla requires CC (unless you out gear it massively)
Retial, you only need SOME CC on high M+, but mostly silences

Raids
Mythic is the only real challenge and HM is easy, assuming you don't ignore mechanics
Vanilla, while simple mechanics, are drawn out and have 1 shot mechanics that MUST be followed.

Vanilla is harder overall, but easier in some regards but the overall experience out performs
You missed the entire reason people want Vanilla. Give yourself a pat on the back.
Assemble a team of 40 warm bodies that ALL have the next 2-3 hours free to raid with consumables and decent gear to step into the raid... there’s your challenge
Most of the 2019 playerbase will quit when they die at level 4
11/13/2018 09:37 PMPosted by Melaned
11/13/2018 09:20 PMPosted by Hopera
...

Very well said. And I agree 100%.

The earlier raids should be rebalanced and some of the tier sets needs to be looked at to match the changes.

100% Agreed.


Completely disagree.
Tier set changes will fundamentally shift the entire game towards raiding.
Raid rebalancing sort of points out just how easy the content is then doesn't it?
I started during the BC but everything < 60 was probably the same difficulty.

Fighting an equal level elite was hard.
Clueless people will get their asses handed to them.
World rare elites were actually difficult but they usually had decent rewards.

Clothie pulling more than 3 mobs = dead unless you really knew what you were doing.

Wait until you get to the Stormgarde Keep quest line where you had to beat up some elite named NPCs in the keep.
Assuming you kill all the cannon fodder quickly enough before they respawned, you may last long enough to kill one of them before the other two(?) beat you into paste.
That was group quest, no soloing.

Face pull two dungeons packs = death in a few seconds.
11/13/2018 11:15 PMPosted by Thundathys
11/13/2018 09:37 PMPosted by Melaned
...
100% Agreed.


Completely disagree.
Tier set changes will fundamentally shift the entire game towards raiding.
Raid rebalancing sort of points out just how easy the content is then doesn't it?


Yes in some cases, gear rebalancing can be bad. But tier sets were rebalanced later in the patches. If you play on progression servers, sets like Lawbringer are worthless because it wasn't updated until later patches, etc.

I hate to admit it if you ever played with a serious guild who farms BiS, MC is cleared in about an hour, no problems.
11/13/2018 06:42 PMPosted by Natiari
11/13/2018 06:33 PMPosted by Hopera
fear the toxic Classic community

I've been seeing this alot, and I've only been here a short while.

The Classic community attacking retail and its players every chance they get.

It's sad, really.


If the retail snowflacommunity wanted to avoid negative responses they wouldn't invade and derail an entire forum by continually posting attempts at swaying blizzard into ruining classic the same way they carried on like porkchops over the years for qol changes that ruined the game the first time around.

People don't take too kindly to being burned twice.

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