Mythic + Top Tanks

General Discussion
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10/29/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Cyouskin
10/29/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Treefitty
And yes... this is why other tanks are completely ignored because they don't have tool kits necessary. Why did WoW remove Slow from Guardians? Let alone a multitude of other Tools DK's have.... such as DPS... Guardians hit like a wet noodle but that's fine for them?

Tank utility is pretty sensitive to class design. It's fair to say Prot Warrior and Guardian are struggling mechanically.


It's more than fair to say it. In fact it is quite obvious to say it. It's incredibly easy to see. I haven't asked for DK's to be nerfed. I am just saying that there is a such a tank shortage perhaps they should give half of the tanks a buff which means adding tools to the tool kit to give them flavor to compete with DK's.
10/29/2018 10:39 AMPosted by Metrohaha
They are making adjustments to tanks in 8.1, but realize that a high amount of what is causing that is not something that can be fixed.

Imo, the problem is the way dk is designed is perfect for 5 mans so no matter how well other tanks do they will always be good for 5 mans.

Another problem is people only want to take the best option and worry too much about flavor of the month. In reality those stats don't represent the gap between the tanks at all.

Do is strong and always will be in 5 mans, but they aren't anywhere nearly THAT strong.

My advice is try other tanks and break the meta. Show them how good the other options can be.


I feel like it is absolutely a solvable problem.

Change mass grip -> AOE root
Change hemostasis to only 8% dmg, not healing
Change single grip to be in line with frost / unholy CD

The problem is most top end tanks, or people that occupy that segment of the playerbase, will migrate to whatever tank is strongest.

If prot paladins suddenly became the best tank for M+, you would see 90% prot paladins, or prot warriors, or whatever.

I think Blizzard is hesitant to nerf DKs into the ground because it will be annoying to all the people who play this game for pushing M+ to have to switch mains. Which is a legitimate concern.
10/29/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Treefitty
I am just saying that there is a such a tank shortage perhaps they should give half of the tanks a buff which means adding tools to the tool kit to give them flavor to compete with DK's.

The struggling tanks need more tools.

Personally, I think it would be cool if Prot Warrior gained a tether ability through Heroic Throw. Basically, it's Death Grip, warrior-style. And Shield Slam dispels a single buff from the target.

Guardian Druids gain "Deafening Roar" -- an AOE Silence. Infected Wounds on Swipe would be good too. But I'd also give them something that increases their dodge chance by 30% for 8 seconds.
the fact that lepan has done 17 underrots this week w/o a healer says it all.
10/29/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Cyouskin
10/29/2018 01:23 PMPosted by Treefitty
I am just saying that there is a such a tank shortage perhaps they should give half of the tanks a buff which means adding tools to the tool kit to give them flavor to compete with DK's.

The struggling tanks need more tools.

Personally, I think it would be cool if Prot Warrior gained a tether ability through Heroic Throw. Basically, it's Death Grip, warrior-style. And Shield Slam dispels a single buff from the target.

Guardian Druids gain "Deafening Roar" -- an AOE Silence. Infected Wounds on Swipe would be good too. But I'd also give them something that increases their dodge chance by 30% for 8 seconds.


While it's great for all of us to suggest things to fix the under performing tanks, it's disheartening to see the priority was to adjust things with DK's instead of looking at the higher priority which was to fix other underperforming tanks. That seems very much like a cart before the horse issue.
DKs have largely dominated the high end mythic+ community for a long time, the only exception since IO has been a thing was in 7.3, but that was largely Shakib and Zqs swapping back and forth for the top spot. Also, if you're gonna complain about how powerful a specific class is for high end running, at least link relevant information.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/season-bfa-1/us/leaderboards-character/all/tank#role=tank:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=2:maxMythicLevel=99

What you linked is filled with multiple keys being run by the same person. The first link in particular has Lepan 14 times out of 20 simply because he holds all 14 spots. That doesn't mean Blood DK is the problem class, it just shows Lepan is a very good M+ player. Even the second link has several players repeated.

The link above shows highest M+ score among all unique players. You'll notice that while Blood DK makes up the majority, there are several other classes represented, basically everything except Guardian and Prot Warrior are in the top 20. If you update it to include all regions, you'll notice that Blood DK becomes a bit more prominent, with Lepan and Fruppie taking the 1st and second spot and a few more DKs fitting into the middle as the scores become a lot tighter. You still see a good variety of players within the top 40. Even a Korean Warrior player holds spot 41.
10/29/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Requan
the fact that lepan has done 17 underrots this week w/o a healer says it all.


That's actually misleading due to the strat used for Underrot and the way raider.io scrapes data.

The 1st boss on Underrot is probably the hardest dungeon boss on high keys, the dps check grows very quickly because of the increasing number of blood mirror copies. At the same time, all the boss abilities are 1-shots at 17, so a healer is basically worthless.

What this leads to is starting the dungeon as 4-DPS+1-Tank, shrouding to the first boss and killing it, then having the healer sacrifice themselves on trash, run out of the instance, and respec to healer for the rest of the dungeon(if you leave the instance, you can change spec, talents, and gear). However, raider.io records the data of specs when you start the key, so even though you only have 4 DPS for the 1st boss, it'll show you as having 4 DPS for the whole dungeon.
Lepan is an MDI player. they always play at a high lvl of skill regardless of class or spec. and is almost 390 ilvl, ofc they will be powerful, but blood is getting nerfed, play what you want to have fun this is a video game lol
I cannot speak for everyone, that is a tank, but I'm sure most would agree.

It's a video game Gellgath, I agree with no questions ask, but we also want to enjoy the game. We want equal competitiveness across the boards. This is the only thing that all of the other tanks are asking for.
10/29/2018 10:39 AMPosted by Metrohaha
They are making adjustments to tanks in 8.1, but realize that a high amount of what is causing that is not something that can be fixed.

Imo, the problem is the way dk is designed is perfect for 5 mans so no matter how well other tanks do they will always be good for 5 mans.

Another problem is people only want to take the best option and worry too much about flavor of the month. In reality those stats don't represent the gap between the tanks at all.

Do is strong and always will be in 5 mans, but they aren't anywhere nearly THAT strong.

My advice is try other tanks and break the meta. Show them how good the other options can be.

And the solution is to reroll and spend all your time for the next few months leveling all the other tanks. That'll keep 'em busy.
10/29/2018 10:43 AMPosted by Evocyber
Metrohaha... You just agreed that DKs are an OP class in mythic+s... That doesn't look good for you, or other DKs, to go out and do that. You've just put a large marker on DK's heads.


You should read the PTR patch notes.
Look let’s cut the bs here it’s really stupid that Blood dk is legit so over powered if your not running a blood dk in mythic plus your handicapping the run. There is no way to defend it and anyone that is is either just a shill or protecting their mvp status.
DONT NERF BLOOD DK's OR MONKS INSTEAD LETS ADD SOME UTILITY TO WARRIORS AND DRUIDS WITH A GENERAL INCREASE IN SELF SUSTAIN AND ARMOR.. INCREASE PROT PALLY SELF HEAL AND GIVE DH MORE DMG MITIGATION.... OH WAIT THATS NOT NERFING A CLASS THATS BUFFING EVERY OTHER TANK
10/29/2018 10:34 AMPosted by Mezx
Wait till you run into the issue of...

"Need Rogue/Frost Mage/Boomkin/DH DPS only"


It's a sad reality of mythic+ dungeons. obviously a problem of bad game design.

the fact is the classes you mention above make dungeons way easier than if you bring other classes, even if those classes are skilled players.

but that's what's bound to happen when you make it so you can only bring 5 people, and put piles of mechanics in a dungeon and not give all classes equal utility.
Blood dk have been the meta tank for mythic plus for 4 years I mean at what’s going to change now. It absolutely ridiculous they just don’t remove every other tank from the game because they have done nothing to change that fact.
10/29/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Juniorpio
10/29/2018 11:11 AMPosted by Metrohaha
...

Huh? It's not something any sane person would disagree with lol.
I don't really care what it looks like, it's how it is, but it's also how it has been since wod. Dks kit is extremely applicable to 5 mans and always will be.

But they aren't so much stronger that 90 percent of the leaderboards should be blood.

The thing that confuses me is why everyone is suddenly concerned about this when it was the same way in the last two expansions. That's 5 plus years of being in this situation, so why only now are you concerned?


Actually they are.

30 seconds of no heals needed is huge on big pulls with good DPS.

The fact that DKs can go into high end keys and actually clear it without healers is an issue, especially in time.

Look, you can say "break the meta" all you want but there is no way a Warrior or Guardian can do that. It isn't possible.

The next best M+ tank is DH and even we are leaps below what a DK can do. Brews are close to us as well, but even at that ....


No point talking to Metro tbh.

In beta he tried to say how DH are so OP, best utility by far blah blah.

The reality was DK was OP then , OP now and OP till blizz decides to make them not brokenly strong.

He also tries to say its not tuning but kit, which is also a blatant lie.

If blood were reliant on healers, like every other tank that would be true.

The reason they are so string is entirely numbers, other tanks were made to not be self reliant, blood escaped this nerf somehow. Their throughput is exactly why they are broken.
10/29/2018 10:37 AMPosted by Sy
Due to how some classes have much better utility than others, the same meta is going to form around high end keys just like Legion.

And there's really nothing they can do unless they homogenize classes even further.


Its the problem with small group content, the reason they stopped doing 10 man heroic raids was because it was too hard to balance, when you literally can only bring one tank one healer and 3 DPS, you literally cannot afford to bring a class that just performs those roles well through sheer numbers, when everyone knows what to do and is decked out you can only get ahead by using certain abilities only available to certain specs.

It sucks but we know M+ will be in the game forever now, so if you really care about running M+ as your endgame you kind of have to choose your class based on that.

In vanilla I looked up how classes performed before leveling because EQ taught me harshly what happens if you play a class no one wants to camp with. If you leveled a hybrid in vanilla and didn't like healing you probably wouldn't end up in full T2, which wasn't an issue because all the tier gear for hybrids was healing gear.
Instead of nerfing DK's, they should just bring the other tanks onto the same page at least. The last thing we need are weaker tanks. Tanking is excruciating painful as it is.
10/29/2018 10:39 AMPosted by Metrohaha
They are making adjustments to tanks in 8.1, but realize that a high amount of what is causing that is not something that can be fixed.

Imo, the problem is the way dk is designed is perfect for 5 mans so no matter how well other tanks do they will always be good for 5 mans.

Another problem is people only want to take the best option and worry too much about flavor of the month. In reality those stats don't represent the gap between the tanks at all.

Do is strong and always will be in 5 mans, but they aren't anywhere nearly THAT strong.

My advice is try other tanks and break the meta. Show them how good the other options can be.


I just want to point out here that....

You play a Blood DK, not exactly what one would possibly call an objective source..

So yeah.
All I see is blah blah OH NOES NO ONE WANTS ME!! blah blah blah BREAK THE <insert class here that people want>

Why is the knee jerk to always NERF what's actually working and not buff the tanks that need help.

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