Saurfang the patsy

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did blizzard really just spend millions of dollars to makes this cinematic?

and what narrative purpose did it have? what waste of money.

a single text ingame would be enough.
"anduin:i let saurfang go i believe that we have things in common" boom, no cinematic.

so seeing how blizzard spend a lot of money to make this, i assume that it only can end with mop 2.0. we are already holding hands!
11/02/2018 08:46 PMPosted by Etheldald
did blizzard really just spend millions of dollars to makes this cinematic?

and what narrative purpose did it have? what waste of money.

a single text ingame would be enough.
"anduin:i let saurfang go i believe that we have things in common" boom, no cinematic.

so seeing how blizzard spend a lot of money to make this, i assume that is only can end with mop 2.0. we are already holding hands!
1) I think its pretty clear that they did not spend millions on this cinematic. Two locations (one of which is which contained, the other mostly at a distance), no noticeable new models, no extensive action scenes. None of this screams the usual scale of their grandiose cinematics.

2) Just who would Anduin say that to? I think it would only make sense for it to be done in a cutscene where only Anduin and Saurfang are present. I was simply expecting them to make it in the style of the in-game cinematics.
11/02/2018 08:37 PMPosted by Rothiron
*cleans out ear*

Nyeh? I'm sorry, I don't see a specific quote in that post.


Nonono... don´t backpedal buddy; explain how you don´t know this is part from the scenario if you didn´t chose to save the soldiers caught up on the blight deployment.
11/02/2018 08:46 PMPosted by Etheldald
so seeing how blizzard spend a lot of money to make this, i assume that is only can end with mop 2.0. we are already holding hands!


Only way I´ll willingly hold hands with you people is if this is done over the collective massacrated bodies of Sylvanas, Saurfang, Baine, Anduin and Calia -this one is another cancer waiting to metastasize-.

Our toons deserve better... WE deserve MUCH better than this

#vindicateWarchiefVol´jinkillthereplacementtrash
#vindicatetheNightelvesdownwiththemoronHighKing&co
11/02/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Ariël
Only way I´ll willingly hold hands with you people is if this is done over the collective massacrated bodies of Sylvanas, Saurfang, Baine, Anduin and Calia -this one is another cancer waiting to metastasize-.


why calia? she is kinda nice! i look forward to see her.. in the alliance.

11/02/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Ariël
Our toons deserve better... WE deserve MUCH better than this

i agree, but is not like am not enjoying it :p especially with that juicy nelf cinematic.
11/02/2018 08:51 PMPosted by Rothiron
2) Just who would Anduin say that to? I think it would only make sense for it to be done in a cutscene where only Anduin and Saurfang are present. I was simply expecting them to make it in the style of the in-game cinematics.

i don't know, just a minor mention at the end of the 8.1 alliance quests?
11/02/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Ariël
Nonono... don´t backpedal buddy; explain how you don´t know this is part from the scenario if you didn´t chose to save the soldiers caught up on the blight deployment.
lol, I ain't backpedaling. I set a specific request that you are now suspiciously avoiding.

I did the scenario close to launch. I don't recollect something so specific as "Oh, we got orders to pull back before the blight was deployed!" I'll grant maybe my memory is fuzzy.

Now provide an actual quote. Support the argument. Fulfill the burden of proof. WoWpedia this business.
I think some people are giving Anduin waaay too much credit here. You guys are treating the situation as if Anduin has some Lord Palpatine moment in which he talks to Saurfang to turn him against the Horde to cripple them specifically so that the Alliance can stamp out the Horde instead of looking at it for what it is: just a young man who wanted to know why this battle hardened Orc rushed in on a suicide mission and why he didn't kill him.

Anduin is at his core a flowerchild who realizes that Sylvannas is a problem, not just to the Alliance but to the Horde as well. He himself let Saurfang go because he believes that Saurfang can "fix" the Horde to bring it back to what it once was. Anduin doesn't do any scheming, he just thought he was doing the right thing.

Anduin doesn't have a grand scheme of subjugating the Horde since he's always respected the Horde despite everything that has happened, wants legitimate peace between the two factions. He wants the Horde and Alliance to finally bury the hatchet and coexist in Azeroth together so that they can focus on the bigger problems like the planet bleeding to death. He was curious as to why Saurfang didn't kill him, Saurfang was honest with Anduin and told him what he thought the problem was, Anduin agreed and set him free so that they could remove Sylvannas from power (not together but each in their own way). Like others said before, their goals align but that's the extent of their relationship that we can see so far. People are reading into it way more than they have to I think.
11/02/2018 08:59 PMPosted by Calixto
I think some people are giving Anduin waaay too much credit here. You guys are treating the situation as if Anduin has some Lord Palpatine


Dear, nobody is giving credit to Anduin as if he masterminded this in his best Light Yamagi impersonation (the pet character of Golden is too much of a bad character to pull this off)... we are criticizing how Saurfang happily did nothing until the human King Brat went and qqed to him. The message I get as a Horde player is that Saurfang couldn´t care less over MY opinion but he is quick to save poor wittle Anduin from having his heart broken by meanie Sylvanus...

11/02/2018 08:59 PMPosted by Calixto
Like others said before, their goals align but that's the extent of their relationship that we can see so far.


You guys need better reading comprehension if you can´t "see underneath the underneath" with such blatant army of clues...
11/02/2018 08:57 PMPosted by Etheldald
i don't know, just a minor mention at the end of the 8.1 alliance quests?
Again, to who? There's no way Anduin mentioning this to anyone, even the players, could be a simple "minor mention".
Dear, nobody is giving credit to Anduin as if he masterminded this in his best Light Yamagi impersonation (the pet character of Golden is too much of a bad character to pull this off)... we are criticizing how Saurfang happily did nothing until the human King Brat went and qqed to him. The message I get as a Horde player is that Saurfang couldn´t care less over MY opinion but he is quick to save poor wittle Anduin from having his heart broken by meanie Sylvanus...

I can't really say what Saurfang is feeling. We don't get too much information or moments where he has internal monologues. He's not as transparent as Anduin either. Who knows what he's thinking, I'm just going off of what they've shown us.

You guys need better reading comprehension if you can´t "see underneath the underneath" with such blatant army of clues...

I dunno. Just seems like people are looking for meaning where there is none. Thoughts and opinions and speculations get lost in a haze of head-cannons and people just looking for things that are not there.

But everyone sees things differently. That's just how I see it. *shrug*
11/02/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Rothiron
So Saurfang is working for Anduin...

...even though Anduin hasn't set any terms.

Hasn't imposed any requirements from Saurfang.

Hasn't threatened him with anything to compel cooperation.

And was simply let free from his cell with no negotiations.

But he's totally working for Anduin, guyz, for real. Saurfang is a traitor, lol.


Him returning to the Horde, attempting to oust the Warchief in the midst of a war and causing internal strife is a huge asset to the enemy that the Horde's fighting.

That's manipulation. He's believing that Anduin's not the enemy and that Sylvanas isn't the enemy of the Alliance, she's the enemy of everyone, and that by stopping her, he can reclaim what honor's been shed and stop the war.

By freeing him and letting him think that Anduin's his friend, he's playing directly into his wants. He is the son of a King, I'm sure social manipulations aren't lost to him, as naive as he may be to war without council from his Marshals.
11/02/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Gladwell
That's manipulation. He's believing that Anduin's not the enemy and that Sylvanas isn't the enemy of the Alliance, she's the enemy of everyone, and that by stopping her, he can reclaim what honor's been shed and stop the war.
She is clearly the enemy of life. Let's face reality here. She wants undeath and death. Don't believe for a second that once the Alliance is dead and raised, she won't turn her focus on her living followers.
11/02/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Gladwell
Him returning to the Horde, attempting to oust the Warchief in the midst of a war and causing internal strife is a huge asset to the enemy that the Horde's fighting.

That's manipulation. He's believing that Anduin's not the enemy and that Sylvanas isn't the enemy of the Alliance, she's the enemy of everyone, and that by stopping her, he can reclaim what honor's been shed and stop the war.

By freeing him and letting him think that Anduin's his friend, he's playing directly into his wants. He is the son of a King, I'm sure social manipulations aren't lost to him, as naive as he may be to war without council from his Marshals.
Just a protip, don't use Sylvanas' assessments of Anduin as the basis of analyzing his personality. Anduin is not a Game of Thrones character. We can very safely assume that he's not manipulating Saurfang deceptively just for the purpose of undermining Sylvanas' war efforts against the Alliance. We can almost certainly assume in fact that that's not really at the forefront of his mind when he leaves the cell open.

Honestly, even if that was Anduin's central design, the alternative is leaving Sylvanas in charge to run the Horde into the ground and kill everyone, or for the Alliance to trounce the Horde in the process of removing her from power. As of 8.1, Sylvanas doesn't need help from Saurfang splitting her forces to lose this war.

11/02/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Cladriah
She is clearly the enemy of life.
She's the enemy of death too. Bwonsamdi thinks she's out of whack.
11/02/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Cladriah
11/02/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Gladwell
That's manipulation. He's believing that Anduin's not the enemy and that Sylvanas isn't the enemy of the Alliance, she's the enemy of everyone, and that by stopping her, he can reclaim what honor's been shed and stop the war.
She is clearly the enemy of life. Let's face reality here. She wants undeath and death. Don't believe for a second that once the Alliance is dead and raised, she won't turn her focus on her living followers.


11/02/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Rothiron
11/02/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Gladwell
Him returning to the Horde, attempting to oust the Warchief in the midst of a war and causing internal strife is a huge asset to the enemy that the Horde's fighting.

That's manipulation. He's believing that Anduin's not the enemy and that Sylvanas isn't the enemy of the Alliance, she's the enemy of everyone, and that by stopping her, he can reclaim what honor's been shed and stop the war.

By freeing him and letting him think that Anduin's his friend, he's playing directly into his wants. He is the son of a King, I'm sure social manipulations aren't lost to him, as naive as he may be to war without council from his Marshals.
Just a protip, don't use Sylvanas' assessments of Anduin as the basis of analyzing his personality. Anduin is not a Game of Thrones character. We can very safely assume that he's not manipulating Saurfang deceptively just for the purpose of undermining Sylvanas' war efforts against the Alliance. We can almost certainly assume in fact that that's not really at the forefront of his mind when he leaves the cell open.

Honestly, even if that was Anduin's central design, the alternative is leaving Sylvanas in charge to run the Horde into the ground and kill everyone, or for the Alliance to trounce the Horde in the process of removing her from power. As of 8.1, Sylvanas doesn't need help from Saurfang splitting her forces to lose this war.

11/02/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Cladriah
She is clearly the enemy of life.
She's the enemy of death too. Bwonsamdi thinks she's out of whack.


Oh, absolutely, she's been hit with the villain bat too many times and is now missing a few screws. She needs to go adios as Warchief. But it's war. There is fighting going on. There's orders being flung around, there's actions that have to be taken, there's a /lot/ that comes down from a position like Warchief.

I said this in another thread, the time for change is not in the middle of a war, it's after it. When the immediate threat in front of the Horde is neutralized, that's the ideal time to handle internal conflicts, change leadership, et cetra.

Her being ousted mid-war would throw the Horde off balance, make them even weaker in the war and lead to defeat. Even if Saurfang was made Warchief (despite being a super suicidal dude), there is nothing stopping the Alliance from just coming in and cleaning up shop to either annihilate the Horde or make them a vassal state.

Peace is best struck when it's made by two equals who do not negotiate from a position of weakness. Being thoroughly ran over by the Alliance leaves little room for negotiating peace in favorable terms for the Horde and allows them to set unconditional terms that cannot be contested.

At best, it'd be leaving the Horde to dwell in their capitols and give up payments of harvests and gold. That's at its best.
11/02/2018 09:50 PMPosted by Gladwell
Oh, absolutely, she's been hit with the villain bat too many times and is now missing a few screws. She needs to go adios as Warchief. But it's war. There is fighting going on. There's orders being flung around, there's actions that have to be taken, there's a /lot/ that comes down from a position like Warchief.

I said this in another thread, the time for change is not in the middle of a war, it's after it. When the immediate threat in front of the Horde is neutralized, that's the ideal time to handle internal conflicts, change leadership, et cetra.

Her being ousted mid-war would throw the Horde off balance, make them even weaker in the war and lead to defeat. Even if Saurfang was made Warchief (despite being a super suicidal dude), there is nothing stopping the Alliance from just coming in and cleaning up shop to either annihilate the Horde or make them a vassal state.
I would generally agree with you in most circumstances, but as the stated goal of the war is to depose Sylvanas, and Sylvanas is the critical aggressor in the conflict and the driving force in all honesty...

...Well, once she's deposed, then whoever is in her place is able to actually open up negotiations with the Alliance, and work towards deescalating the conflict. Baine would no longer be forbidden from conversing with Anduin for instance.

Now my actual speculation is that Anduin will be ousted in a soft coup before that could happen, but as it stands now, remove Sylvanas from the picture and replace her with Saurfang, Baine, or literally anyone (maybe except Nathanos), you got a plausible path to peace, at which point being technically weaker for going through the coup isn't as important.
11/02/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Gladwell
Him returning to the Horde, attempting to oust the Warchief in the midst of a war and causing internal strife is a huge asset to the enemy that the Horde's fighting.

That's manipulation. He's believing that Anduin's not the enemy and that Sylvanas isn't the enemy of the Alliance, she's the enemy of everyone, and that by stopping her, he can reclaim what honor's been shed and stop the war.

By freeing him and letting him think that Anduin's his friend, he's playing directly into his wants. He is the son of a King, I'm sure social manipulations aren't lost to him, as naive as he may be to war without council from his Marshals.


This would be an interesting analysis cause that would mean that Saurfang has been manipulated twice by two separate heads of states to get him to enact a series of actions that would aid said head of state against the other.

Also, since Anduin is High King in the future, it's very likely that his little gambit works. That is unless no one in the Alliance ever finds out that he let Saurfang go.
11/02/2018 10:01 PMPosted by Rothiron
11/02/2018 09:50 PMPosted by Gladwell
Oh, absolutely, she's been hit with the villain bat too many times and is now missing a few screws. She needs to go adios as Warchief. But it's war. There is fighting going on. There's orders being flung around, there's actions that have to be taken, there's a /lot/ that comes down from a position like Warchief.

I said this in another thread, the time for change is not in the middle of a war, it's after it. When the immediate threat in front of the Horde is neutralized, that's the ideal time to handle internal conflicts, change leadership, et cetra.

Her being ousted mid-war would throw the Horde off balance, make them even weaker in the war and lead to defeat. Even if Saurfang was made Warchief (despite being a super suicidal dude), there is nothing stopping the Alliance from just coming in and cleaning up shop to either annihilate the Horde or make them a vassal state.
I would generally agree with you in most circumstances, but as the stated goal of the war is to depose Sylvanas, and Sylvanas is the critical aggressor in the conflict and the driving force in all honesty...

...Well, once she's deposed, then whoever is in her place is able to actually open up negotiations with the Alliance, and work towards deescalating the conflict. Baine would no longer be forbidden from conversing with Anduin for instance.

Now my actual speculation is that Anduin will be ousted in a soft coup before that could happen, but as it stands now, remove Sylvanas from the picture and replace her with Saurfang, Baine, or literally anyone (maybe except Nathanos), you got a plausible path to peace, at which point being technically weaker for going through the coup isn't as important.


It doesn't have to be her that says when the brakes are hit and when the fighting stops. War doesn't get waged if her Warlords don't hand out orders and she's powerless to order an army who's chosen to stand down. Saurfang has huge clout with the O.G. Horde and if he wants to stage a coup, he can and do it successfully. But it shouldn't be in a time where the faction is vulnerable and then go to negotiate with the enemy while the faction is defenseless. No-one in their right mind puts their neck out to the teeth of a bear that's been pelted with rocks and poked with sharp sticks, then expect it to not bite.

Change should and must come when the Horde isn't in danger and it must be handled on its own terms. The Alliance is not an ally, it is an Alliance of its own peoples and agendas. In peace, at best, they could barter. In war, they have an agenda and that primary agenda is to serve their own interests first. The Horde's first impressions with the Alliance was the sacking of Stormwind, they have 0 reason to like them, or buy into the story of Orcs calming down after drinking demon blood.
Maybe true, but missing several key points.


I address those points in the very next section. Basically, there is no reason to trust Anduin when he has shown an unwillingness to reign in his people, and possibly even undermine the Horde directly as Sylvanas interprets in BtS.

And two, Sylvanas would've gained infinitely more of an advantage holding Teldrassil hostage as opposed to burning it down out of spite,


Except it wasn't out of spite, and the plan was to capture it. The problem was it would be impossible to hold if Malfurion lived, the Night Elves would rally around him.

And Sylvanas had her goblins attack a surveying team and kidnap a prominent Alliance engineer just prior to the Gathering.


The Alliance attacked them first in Silithus.

While the Stormheim incident was a cause for concern, it wasn't really at the forefront of everyone's mind in the aftermath of the war with the Legion.


It was literally fronted as one of the reasons for why the Horde couldn't trust the Alliance to keep the peace.

As for "Anduin's cunning", *snicker*,


It's completely reasonable to perceive Anduin bringing Calia to the gathering as malevolence rather than the impossible blithering stupidity it was.

I'd equate Teldrassil more with Pearl Harbor actually, an action meant to cripple and deter the enemy force but ultimately roused them to action,


Zuldazar is more that, fleet bombing and all.

Which makes it genocide in intent no matter how you slice it, as bombing a city is very different from bombing a country.


What, does the scale change things? Over the course of the war, over a million civilians were killed through firebombings and the use of the atomic bombs in Japan. Is that not comparable to Teldrassil because the Night Elves are a smaller and more condensed population? You say it's different from bombing a country, but not only is Teldrassil not a country, countries were bombed out in the World Wars, and entire populations were devastated. And that's only a modern example, generally the further back you go in history the more cutthroat things get even if in total numbers the death toll tended to be lower.

You miss the point I was making by bringing up the example, which is that we think very differently of treachery when its enacted upon a morally questionable regime.


Every regime is morally questionable. The point I'm making is that the moral failings you're bringing up on this topic really aren't reason for betrayal.

11/02/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Rothiron
Got specific quotes? Because all Sylvanas orders is "Prepare the Blight!" before making it rain acid in the cutscenes. I don't remember seeing mention of any such recalls.


Did you play the scenario? Because it's literally what happens. The player and the raid are in the middle of the field, the cutscene plays, the order to prepare and deploy the blight is given, and when the cutscene ends the entire raid is back in the central courtyard.
I miss the days when words actually meant something and you couldn't just say, "This character is working for this other character" and a bunch of sheep agree with you because they like a certain character.

Saurfang isn't working for Anduin. That's a bald faced lie.
11/02/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Nairdrix
11/02/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Gladwell
Him returning to the Horde, attempting to oust the Warchief in the midst of a war and causing internal strife is a huge asset to the enemy that the Horde's fighting.

That's manipulation. He's believing that Anduin's not the enemy and that Sylvanas isn't the enemy of the Alliance, she's the enemy of everyone, and that by stopping her, he can reclaim what honor's been shed and stop the war.

By freeing him and letting him think that Anduin's his friend, he's playing directly into his wants. He is the son of a King, I'm sure social manipulations aren't lost to him, as naive as he may be to war without council from his Marshals.


This would be an interesting analysis cause that would mean that Saurfang has been manipulated twice by two separate heads of states to get him to enact a series of actions that would aid said head of state against the other.

Also, since Anduin is High King in the future, it's very likely that his little gambit works. That is unless no one in the Alliance ever finds out that he let Saurfang go.


Even if no-one figures out it was Anduin who let him go, attempting to oust a Warchief in the middle of the war is a self-destructive behavior. The war has to reach a point where the Horde is not in immediate danger and can survive the enemy if the sue for peace was an elaborate ruse to drop the Horde's guard and sucker punch them.

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