Re: Level Squish Feedback

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11/04/2018 01:36 AMPosted by Xyona
11/04/2018 01:21 AMPosted by Kineological
It could be 1 level with 10 times as much xp needed and the experience would be functionally the same.

so you want more diablo things on WoW?

because what you just said is paragon system minus the stats.

No, I want actual character progression. But in cases where there isn't any, pretending that we are leveling up because.. reasons.. is why we are at 120.
11/03/2018 11:24 PMPosted by Shreds
Here is my idea.


Absolutely stupid idea.

Why?

If they are considering the possibility of a level squish that means within the next expansion or so. Not a decade from now in a game that is steadily dwindling in subscribers.

The current game has 120 character levels which no longer have any great tie to their actual initial expansion thanks to the Cataclysm revamp and then the level scaling change.

The game has 88 questing zones not counting the various "max level" daily areas and PvP contested zones.

Roughly 1/2 of all the zones are "Vanilla" 1-60 zones. The rest of the expansions average 7 zones per expansion.

Characters have relatively few abilities including passives. My 120 WW Monk has 29 spells plus 7 talents. My Havoc DH has 22 plus 7 talents. That's a whole heap of empty useless levels getting jack all. If equally distributed across all 120 levels that's about 1 ability per every 5 levels including passives.

If Blizzard wants to squish levels they could easily cut the current game levels in half with Vanilla being 25 levels and Burning Crusade through Battle For Azeroth all having 5 levels each. The next expansion could add 5 or 10.

This would equate to a new ability around every 2.5 levels.

Current 1-120 leveling averages 60 hours for casual players.

An hour per level with new abilities every other level or so would psychologically feel much better and very much less daunting because you perceive that you are closing in on max level much faster even though you weren't. Because of a clear correlation between time per level. Or they could tune it so the first 30 levels go faster and start slowing down gradually over the last 30.

Honestly right now leveling totally sucks for character progression. Gear is scarce. Mobs scale to level and item level. Abilities are few and far between and don't make much difference in the basic rotation and zero in the time to kill mob to mob.

This character has spent 40 levels and ~20 hours spamming multiple Frostbolt/Ice Lance combos, single target, 1 mob at a time. That's exceedingly boring gameplay that probably won't even improve until at least level 80 and mastery. With another 79 levels to go that basically kills the desire to continue.

Cutting levels in half would allow for mastery much earlier in the character's progress as well as a much better flow of ability gain.
11/03/2018 11:58 PMPosted by Beastbashx
Do not touch the levels, it is a very bad idea.

Stop squishing stats, wait at least 8 more years for that.

Nobody likes stat squishes and it just makes things harder for the development team.

Players like to see their characters do incrementality higher and higher numbers while progressing in a game.

At no point does making "numbers more readable" make any sense for people when making a stat squish; the bigger your numbers the better you feel.

Learn from your mistakes Blizzard.


I like stat squishes. Hitting 30 million TKC took up my entire screen
Personally, I would just like them to add a (free) option to start at 55, same level as DKs. People who wanted to do 1-55 could, but those of us who are burnt out from leveling through all of that could skip. 55-110 is more than enough time to learn how to play a new class, and gives you plenty of time to rack up gold as well.

And for very new players, it's not nearly as intimidating of a slog to get to max. 8D
I like how your quoted player totally assumes that reducing Character Levels means DPS/HPS numbers would be massively reduced as well. One doesn't have to go with the other.
Ya I'll put my vote down for just no more leveling period after bfa. We got almost nothing from actually doing it this time, and there are so many ways to circumvent it it just seems like an afterthough.

A level squish would be nice but people can't get past what they "feel" with current systems compared to the facts, so no clue how leveling squishes could ever be received well.

People will just act like it takes longer no matter what they do.

I don't really see any benefit to it at this point, but I totally agree that leveling is getting pointless at the high end.
11/03/2018 11:49 PMPosted by Dremall
Stat squishes are bad enough; and I completely understand the need for them.

You do a level squish and the uproar would make the whole flying debate seem like a spark compared to the sun. Probably the best way if it does NEED to be done, and I have very deep reservations, is a WoW 2.
Agree. If they squish levels they might as well just remove leveling entirely and turn WoW into an open arena where you wait in a lobby for instances.

With a 55%+ sub loss since August do they really want to antagonize the player base even more at this point? However, judging from Blizzcon I can see they still are far from getting it, so they probably will. I pray that someone with brains comes along to right the Blizzard ship.
11/04/2018 06:11 AMPosted by Metrohaha
Ya I'll put my vote down for just no more leveling period after bfa. We got almost nothing from actually doing it this time, and there are so many ways to circumvent it it just seems like an afterthough.

A level squish would be nice but people can't get past what they "feel" with current systems compared to the facts, so no clue how leveling squishes could ever be received well.

People will just act like it takes longer no matter what they do.

I don't really see any benefit to it at this point, but I totally agree that leveling is getting pointless at the high end.
Then the answer is to make leveling meaningful again, not just remove it because they're bad at creating a leveling experience.
11/04/2018 06:09 AMPosted by Pasmina
55-110 is more than enough time to learn how to play a new class


That still leaves the worst parts of 60-80 which have never been updated and really slow the pace to a crawl.

You assume leveling actually teaches something relevant to end game when you have specs that don't really function without their Mastery at level 80 and have rotations designed around full kits at level 110. Also, solo play doesn't always use the same abilities and talents as instanced group play. You also fail to consider that certain spells may be much more effective while leveling than actual "rotations" which would thus "teach" a leveling player bad habits.

Less levels overall leading to much better spell allocation throughout the process could eliminate most of that.
11/04/2018 06:11 AMPosted by Metrohaha
A level squish would be nice but people can't get past what they "feel" with current systems compared to the facts


Looking through the comments in this thread, it's pretty clear many of the people posting haven't actually done much if any leveling recently and are against the idea "just because" without actually considering the possible benefits.

11/04/2018 06:13 AMPosted by Xeldra
Then the answer is to make leveling meaningful again


And the best way to do this would be to drastically reduce the number of total levels so that characters can have a much better progression of new abilities while leveling and therefore a better overall experience since specializations could be tuned much better across less levels.
I'm in the boat of 'just don't increase the level cap anymore'.

Things like Heart of Azeroth and our artifact weapons already lend towards that idea. Both of these concepts could have been added without a new level cap, since they're effectively both paragon systems already. Just obsolete them when the content they're designed for is done.
11/04/2018 12:02 AMPosted by Bankeroni
Just stop leveling altogether and work towards talents instead. EXP FOR TALENTS!!! WOOO!!!!


This right here. Levels don't matter anymore. They provide nothing other than pacing. Control scaling better. If people are doing 10k DPS right now they shouldn't be doing 20k DPS in the next tier. You won't need squishes. Give quest chains that give us new abilities.
11/03/2018 11:58 PMPosted by Beastbashx
Do not touch the levels, it is a very bad idea.

Stop squishing stats, wait at least 8 more years for that.

Nobody likes stat squishes and it just makes things harder for the development team.

Players like to see their characters do incrementality higher and higher numbers while progressing in a game.

At no point does making "numbers more readable" make any sense for people when making a stat squish; the bigger your numbers the better you feel.

Learn from your mistakes Blizzard.


I'm fine with stat squishing. I don't like bosses having 900 million health x4 and us doing millions of DPS and having millions of health.

It's just ludicrous and no need for that kind of thing, to be honest. And it isn't "hard" for the dev team, it's just a switch they flick now and there's a few odd vehicle quest abilities and such that need rebalanced, but those are usually discovered and fixed within the first week or two then everything's back to normal.

On the topic of Level Squish, IMO, they should just cut the levels in half.

Vanilla is 1-30, each expansion thereafter is 5 levels and BfA would cap at Level 60. Adjust the leveling rate accordingly so that it's a smooth curve as you go up.
Just do what ESO does and provide some items or something at each level up. Show a preview of what you will get at next level. Level ups don't always have to provide a skill, just think about items you could reward players with.
One of the worst things about leveling is that it feels unrewarding. I think one thing that would help is a combination of the artifact weapon talent tree and the current talent tree. Instead of tying it to max level and a piece of gear spread it out over the course of the leveling experience. That way you get the constant reward from leveling, and then the choice of the current talent trees.

Every level you get a minor talent point to spend (the artifact weapon tree) and every 15 levels you get a major talent point (the current system). Bring back the class trainers it made getting a new spell rewarding in that you had to go and get it. Also bring back spell ranks, and just lock out down ranking if that type of play is undesirable.
11/04/2018 04:20 AMPosted by Gulrum
11/04/2018 04:19 AMPosted by Eyrinjia
...

No, it's not time to squish the levels. It would be a huge mistake, and we all know Blizzard's made a few over the years.

Leveling improvements, yes. Level squish, hells, no.


Going through 120+ levels is stupid. Getting upgrades every 10-15 levels is stupid.


If big numbers are scary to you just play Classic
11/04/2018 06:31 AMPosted by Sunday
If big numbers are scary to you just play Classic


Learn some reading comprehension.

120 patently useless character levels have jack all to do with "big numbers".

My Windwalker Monk has 29 total "spells" in his spellbook. Most of which are passives. He doesn't need 110 levels for that few abilities (since you don't get anything new past 110 anyway.)

Crunch that down to 60 levels and you'll actually be able to feel more character progression through ability acquisition even with level and item level scaling keeping combat roughly the same the entire way.
I think many of you against the level squish don't even understand why levels are a problem in the first place. If you don't understand the issue at hand, I don't want you to have a say in the decision. Sadly blizzard doesn't seem to filter their feedback well, given the current state of the game, in BFA, and the entire modern era of WoW.

A level in an RPG, dnd, classic wow, etc, is a power increase. In classic-wrath talents and spell training gave us this. Every level you got a talent and every 2 levels you could go back to a trainer and you would be able to chose to purchase tangible upgrades. Both systems actively engaged the player and offered both character power though player choice.

The problem now is that we have a smaller number of abilities and talents than we did at 60, spread across over twice as many levels. There's very little reward to leveling compared to earlier versions of the game. From level 100 to 120, there is no character progression at all.

What a level squish to 60 offers is a chance to give classes meaningful progression durring leveling. One of the reasons talents were phased out was due to level bloat, so a level squish could enable an oldschool talent system (and based on the reaction to the classic demo, modern gamers are finding the classic talents more engaging than retail WoW's).

Level bloat is at this point, a systemic problem that's holding back a ton of good design and gameplay. If a level squish was carefully thought out and executed, it would be hugely beneficial to the game.
I see three questions:

1) what should be the entry point for a new player inexperienced with WoW and how often should that entry point be modernized?

2) how much legacy content should a new character be expected to play through before reaching current content?

3) how do we give a sustainable illusion of eternal growth and progression without the sheer weight of history bogging characters down (painlessly pruning numbers and ability collections down to what's significant)
Leveling in bfa is pretty useless with scaling. It makes absolutely no sense what there thinking.

But it’s one of the things I’ve always liked best in expansion. Leveling up and getting stronger. So the answer to me is not to get rid of leveling but make it so it’s meaningful again.

But it’s ion. He knows what we want. And I guess leveling up for no reason now is what everyone wants.

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