Remove 30 Minute Lockout When Kicked From Dungeon Finder Group

General Discussion
The 30 minute lockout when kicked from a Dungeon Finder group needs to be removed IF you are kicked from a group. This only serves to punish people who were unfairly removed from a group, and IF you were removed for being a jerk then the time in queue should be enough of a punishment.

A story from personal experience:

I was in a group recently and on the second pull of the dungeon a DPS for some reason jumps into the middle of the room, pulls 3-4 extra mobs, and pulls the boss. It probably doesn't need to be said, but our group wiped very quickly. This same DPS then types "lol", "ez", and "retards" in chat. I don't sweat it because I know it's pretty easy to remove a toxic player via in-game mechanics. However, to my surprise the vote to kick fails. I'm just thinking, are you fracking kidding me! I initiate a second vote while the DPS continues being toxic, which also fails. I then notice that the DPS and two other members of the group are from the same server, and I realize his friends are blocking his removal. Just as I make that realization, I am then removed from the group because these three have a majority of the vote.

It honestly didn't bother me that much because the queue wasn't that long, but now I have to deal with a deserter lockout! Come on, this is such poor implementation of a mechanic that by it's own tooltip is only meant for people who desert a dungeon finder group. Not for being forcibly removed.
Then jerks will hold groups hostage until they are kicked because it lets them avoid the punishment. We've seen it before. No, thanks.

I've been kicked unjustly before. Yeah, it sucks. No, there isn't a better system.
11/08/2018 10:04 PMPosted by Tyriellais
Then jerks will hold groups hostage until they are kicked because it lets them avoid the punishment. We've seen it before. No, thanks.

I've been kicked unjustly before. Yeah, it sucks. No, there isn't a better system.

This, yes. Having lived through tanks AFKing until we kick them from Stonecore three times in a row just so they could avoid the dungeon and requeue instantly, I like the system as it is now.
It also serves to punish people who deserve to be kicked.
Which is why it needs to stay.
In reverse buddy, here's an example of a tank that held the group hostage by a tank, not using any form for tanking, and refusing to switch specs from resto. Can you really say they shouldn't be be punished for trolling the rest of the group when they're kicked? You have to understand, groups were held back by tanks that when instancing into a dungeon they didn't like, would refuse to move. That's why the vote kick system and its penalties were made.
If someone is a bad actor then kick them, that is what the system is there for. All I am hearing is that you all just want the extra punishment for bad actors regardless of the consequences it has on the dungeon finder power dynamic. Because someone abused the old system doesn't mean the current system works.

Let me give you a hypothetical, why can't a group of three just constantly vote kick new members to troll them? They could turn it into a whole mill operation where they just pick up someone new from the queue and then vote kick him; wash and repeat. It would reset someones spot in the queue and also gives them a 30 minute lockout; if you are DPS it could be 40-45 minutes before you can get back into a dungeon. That sounds far worse than a tank who is trying to force a vote kick.

Applying a blanket punishment is just lazy design. At least consider a strike system instead of an instant lockout. For example, you get a debuff if you are kicked from a group, which if it stacks two-three times then you get the 30 minute lockout.
Don't get kicked.
I say we need to increase the time players are locked out until they can no longer join an LFG or any group without waiting hours just for one try.

But I also say we need to revamp how the system works, instead of just having a majority rules system put in place a similar setup to what Lol and DoTA has, if you are a tard the system will recognise this and force ban you.

I don't know how this can work in WoW, but there most certainly has to be a better system that will allow those types of players to be banned rather than just going with majority of your friends so you can do this !@#$.
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
The 30 minute lockout when kicked from a Dungeon Finder group needs to be removed IF you are kicked from a group. This only serves to punish people who were unfairly removed from a group, and IF you were removed for being a jerk then the time in queue should be enough of a punishment.

A story from personal experience:

I was in a group recently and on the second pull of the dungeon a DPS for some reason jumps into the middle of the room, pulls 3-4 extra mobs, and pulls the boss. It probably doesn't need to be said, but our group wiped very quickly. This same DPS then types "lol", "ez", and "retards" in chat. I don't sweat it because I know it's pretty easy to remove a toxic player via in-game mechanics. However, to my surprise the vote to kick fails. I'm just thinking, are you fracking kidding me! I initiate a second vote while the DPS continues being toxic, which also fails. I then notice that the DPS and two other members of the group are from the same server, and I realize his friends are blocking his removal. Just as I make that realization, I am then removed from the group because these three have a majority of the vote.

It honestly didn't bother me that much because the queue wasn't that long, but now I have to deal with a deserter lockout! Come on, this is such poor implementation of a mechanic that by it's own tooltip is only meant for people who desert a dungeon finder group. Not for being forcibly removed.


Once upon a time back in Cata, there was no dungeon deserter buff for being kicked. So healers and tanks who didn't like the dungeon or group they got would try to force the group to kick them by refusing to play. Hence we have a deserter buff for being kicked. It can't go away because the same thing will happen again.
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
A story from personal experience:


We zone into Underrot.

Tank says "I don't want this, Kick me."

We kick him because it makes no difference.
There didn't used to be a deserter debuff when you got kicked. It was worse. Way worse. There are downsides to the current system, to be sure, but they are far far FAR less problematic than not having it was.
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
This only serves to punish people who were unfairly removed from a group, and IF you were removed for being a jerk then the time in queue should be enough of a punishment.


Expect for tanks and healers there is no such thing as a queue, which is why the debuff was added if you were kicked. Back in Legion they would actually force a group to kick them so they could get around the debuff.
wait until you get kicked from those stupid island expeditions randomly and get the debuff....like they're already tedious and boring but the azerite is too important to skip and you get to wait another 30 minutes to finish now, great.
11/09/2018 12:22 AMPosted by Deadkyn
If someone is a bad actor then kick them, that is what the system is there for. All I am hearing is that you all just want the extra punishment for bad actors regardless of the consequences it has on the dungeon finder power dynamic. Because someone abused the old system doesn't mean the current system works.

Let me give you a hypothetical, why can't a group of three just constantly vote kick new members to troll them? They could turn it into a whole mill operation where they just pick up someone new from the queue and then vote kick him; wash and repeat. It would reset someones spot in the queue and also gives them a 30 minute lockout; if you are DPS it could be 40-45 minutes before you can get back into a dungeon. That sounds far worse than a tank who is trying to force a vote kick.

Applying a blanket punishment is just lazy design. At least consider a strike system instead of an instant lockout. For example, you get a debuff if you are kicked from a group, which if it stacks two-three times then you get the 30 minute lockout.


Or, they could leave the system like it is. It's not perfect but no system would be. This wouldn't be an issue if those bad apples weren't spoilg the whole bunch. They have to do things like this because people abuse things without it. So yeah, blanket punishments are what you get.

And before you jump in with it no, you being kicekd from a dungeon isn't abuse of any kind.
11/09/2018 12:22 AMPosted by Deadkyn
Applying a blanket punishment is just lazy design. At least consider a strike system instead of an instant lockout. For example, you get a debuff if you are kicked from a group, which if it stacks two-three times then you get the 30 minute lockout.
Trouble is that it's not solvable (at least not until computers can read minds to determine intent).

Bliz has admitted many times that it's not a perfect system, but that it's the least of many evils. It's the product of many years of trial and error. Its past iterations caused more issues than it does now.

If it could be done better, of course Bliz would. But having been around a while and seen it all, there hasn't been anything that can could do it better as of yet.

Every single suggestion from the community that I've been present for has always had holes in it; something that would not eliminate any of the current evils, but instead introduce more.

Your suggestion, for example, would allow hostage takers three free passes to hold groups hostage, tripling the already long wait times for DPS. Additionally, for those who are behaving badly, they would know they can be as disruptive as they want three times in a row.

'Trolling' is going to exist either way. The current way: players making groups simply to kick others out. Your way: players join groups just to harrass, spam, not participate, wipe, etc.

I don't see Bliz ever allowing free passes. Unless something comes along that doesn't introduce more evils, the only way is to have the debuff applied to everyone equitably.
11/09/2018 05:04 AMPosted by Levíathan
11/09/2018 12:22 AMPosted by Deadkyn
Applying a blanket punishment is just lazy design. At least consider a strike system instead of an instant lockout. For example, you get a debuff if you are kicked from a group, which if it stacks two-three times then you get the 30 minute lockout.
Trouble is that it's not solvable (at least not until computers can read minds to determine intent).

Bliz has admitted many times that it's not a perfect system, but that it's the least of many evils. It's the product of many years of trial and error. Its past iterations caused more issues than it does now.

If it could be done better, of course Bliz would. But having been around a while and seen it all, there hasn't been anything that can could do it better as of yet.

Every single suggestion from the community that I've been present for has always had holes in it; something that would not eliminate any of the current evils, but instead introduce more.

Your suggestion, for example, would allow hostage takers three free passes to hold groups hostage, tripling the already long wait times for DPS. Additionally, for those who are behaving badly, they would know they can be as disruptive as they want three times in a row.

'Trolling' is going to exist either way. The current way: players making groups simply to kick others out. Your way: players join groups just to harrass, spam, not participate, wipe, etc.

I don't see Bliz ever allowing free passes. Unless something comes along that doesn't introduce more evils, the only way is to have the debuff applied to everyone equitably.


Thank you for the developed response. I feel like many of the other responses didn't bother to read my entire post before responding as you're the only one that addressed my proposed solution.

I only threw two or three strikes out as a recommendation; if three feels like too much grace is extended then fine make it two. I honestly feel like two strikes would be enough to protect people from bad actors with majority rule in a dungeon finer group.

I have doubts that two strikes would have any sizable impact on the time in queue; maybe an additional minute tops. This is taking into consideration the time it would take to vote kick a person that is looking for a "free pass" and if, and this is a big if, all players with zero queue time abuse the system. I've played during the days of dungeon finder and no vote kick lockout and I feel like the frequency that it happened is being exaggerated.

Also, consider the benefits this would have to people learning to play their classes. Someone who is still progressing through early Classic Wow leveling/dungeon content. How often have you been in a group that kicked a low performing DPS just because they weren't hitting an arbitrary threshold of damage? Is it fair that they also incur a 30 minute lockout on top of being removed from the group? I don't believe so.

I hear everyone regarding the fallacies of the old system, but the new system has serious flaws. I've seen them over and over again as I've been leveling an alt. A middle ground that doesn't apply a blanket 30 minute lockout would've been the better and more fair option.
Solution: Kill the first boss then initiate the vote to kick, that way there if they try to kick you and its successful you don't get a deserter buff since you have killed the first boss of the dungeon.

Or wait 30 mins by doing something like Darkmoon Fair and/or other events in game, alt hop and level/gear, running old raid content for that armor set, world quests, play hearthstone, RP, farm reputation, complete an old zone for loremaster, go out for a 30 minute walk your body will thank you.
Lesson learned: look before you kick. People like that will retaliate.

As has already been said, it's not a perfect system, but there really is no "perfect" system when you're throwing a bunch of random people into a group together. All you can do is suck it up and deal with it, or only queue with a group so you can be immune from vote kicks.
11/09/2018 04:02 AMPosted by Mate
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
A story from personal experience:


We zone into Underrot.

Tank says "I don't want this, Kick me."

We kick him because it makes no difference.


But it does matter, if this happens a lot, because instead of waiting a minute or two for a replacement you have to wait 5-10 minutes for a replacement. You have a real short memory or didn't play back when people didn't get a deserter buff for being kicked.
11/09/2018 04:02 AMPosted by Mate
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
A story from personal experience:


We zone into Underrot.

Tank says "I don't want this, Kick me."

We kick him because it makes no difference.


Why not just leave the instance, same debuff no?

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