Remove 30 Minute Lockout When Kicked From Dungeon Finder Group

General Discussion
11/09/2018 04:02 AMPosted by Mate
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
A story from personal experience:


We zone into Underrot.

Tank says "I don't want this, Kick me."

We kick him because it makes no difference.


It does make a difference because constant kicking increases your kick timer. So if that becomes the norm you wont be able to do it very often and when you do get a jerk you wont be able to kick him for another 15-20 minutes. Constant kicking does need to increase a timer to do it because if someone is kicking out party members at a far higher rate than normal then they are abusing the kick system and need to be reigned in.

The current system isn't perfect but it is the best you are going to get.
40-60 dungeons are a mess.

they were raids, now dungeons.

got Dire maul, started slow on my pally and spriest pulls for me, just cause you know, helping. taunted tree off him twice, he pulls him twice. GG.

I told group, kick me so I can get a smarter group. debuff or not , not tanking for this moron.

so why is there a tank shortage ?
One way could be to keep track when you are booted from a group and have it stack and decline after time -- example system ....

1st time ) -- 10min Lock out --- 1 strike
2nd time ) -- (2 days later ) -- 20 min lock out -- 2 strike
3rd time ) -- ( 3 days later ) -- 45 min lock out -- 3 strikes
4th time ) -- ( 1 Day later ) -- 1 hour lockout -- still 3 strikes

Once your at 3 strikes you move to the hour lock out BUT -- ONE strike will be removed every 30 days from last one received. Maybe this is not the best but something like this could work
11/08/2018 10:04 PMPosted by Tyriellais
Then jerks will hold groups hostage until they are kicked because it lets them avoid the punishment. We've seen it before. No, thanks.

I've been kicked unjustly before. Yeah, it sucks. No, there isn't a better system.


This. The current system helps more than it hurts. Results are not always perfect, but them's the breaks.
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
This only serves to punish people who were unfairly removed from a group


Wrong

/thread
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
The 30 minute lockout when kicked from a Dungeon Finder group needs to be removed IF you are kicked from a group. This only serves to punish people who were unfairly removed from a group, and IF you were removed for being a jerk then the time in queue should be enough of a punishment.

It's working as intended. AFAIK the system doesn't differentiate between someone being vote kicked, ALT+F4, or a legit DC. It's meant to punish people for dropping the group, and in your example they kicked you because the village idiot was there with friends meaning you left the group, not of your own accord but you left it nonetheless
They need to do something, because it's especially dumb in LFR when you keep getting thrown into instances with bosses you've already killed. You're basically forced to kill a boss you can't get loot from, or dip out and have to wait 30 minutes. It's a terrible design, and when I see someone say there's no fix for it, I just have to roll my eyes. They have a similar system for PvP that seems to work just fine, and is way more intelligent than the one they use for PvE. They could use that, but it would require more effort than they're willing to put into this game anymore.
11/09/2018 05:04 AMPosted by Levíathan
If it could be done better, of course Bliz would.


^One of the biggest lies I've heard in a long time. There are a lot of better ways to do a lot of things in WoW, but ActiBlizz refuses to implement them. They're not interested in better anymore, they're only interested in $$.

As for a solution to the deserter debuff, I believe someone mentioned a 3 strikes you're out option, which I think would cut down a lot of the issues with trolling people. To add t that, you get booted 3 times in a specific time period, say 4 hours, and you get a 60 minute account wide deserter debuff instead of 30 mins.

Semper Fi!
11/09/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Zeerionjax
11/09/2018 05:04 AMPosted by Levíathan
If it could be done better, of course Bliz would.


^One of the biggest lies I've heard in a long time. There are a lot of better ways to do a lot of things in WoW, but ActiBlizz refuses to implement them. They're not interested in better anymore, they're only interested in $$.

As for a solution to the deserter debuff, I believe someone mentioned a 3 strikes you're out option, which I think would cut down a lot of the issues with trolling people. To add t that, you get booted 3 times in a specific time period, say 4 hours, and you get a 60 minute account wide deserter debuff instead of 30 mins.

Semper Fi!


So you mean people can leave a dungeon or get kicked three times in a day (yes i know 4 hour period but really most people don't play more than that)? Are you serious ?

I would guess most people don't do more than one or two queuable instances a day anyway. Your system would result in the same nonsense as what happened in cata.

Try again if you think a solution is so easy.
11/09/2018 04:54 AMPosted by Vaeana
And before you jump in with it no, you being kicekd from a dungeon isn't abuse of any kind.

You might want to grab a dictionary; that's exactly what it is. But as has been stated numerous times in this thread, every implementation of the queue system has some potential for abuse. The Deserter debuff may penalize some people it wasn't intended to, but it still serves a necessary purpose.
This same DPS then types "lol", "ez", and "retards" in chat. I don't sweat it because I know it's pretty easy to remove a toxic player via in-game mechanics. However, to my surprise the vote to kick fails. I'm just thinking, are you fracking kidding me! I initiate a second vote while the DPS continues being toxic, which also fails. I then notice that the DPS and two other members of the group are from the same server ...

And you still wanted to run with them?

They did you a favor, sir, and saved you the effort of dropping group yourself. That 30-minute debuff you got beats the 2 1/2 hour of torture it would have been trying to get that group of pre-teen goofwads through that dungeon.

Walk away and thank them for inadvertently saving you time.
11/09/2018 12:22 AMPosted by Deadkyn
Let me give you a hypothetical, why can't a group of three just constantly vote kick new members to troll them? They could turn it into a whole mill operation where they just pick up someone new from the queue and then vote kick him; wash and repeat.


Because there is already a system in place to stop that.

There are several parts to the vote kick system that either you are ignorant about or are leaving out to further your own agenda.

The system keeps track of how frequently you are vote kicking, it adds a cooldown that prevents you from vote kicking for a while after a certain amount.

Also, unless it changed at some point, there are a limited number of kicks available per instance group.

So, since there are no unlimited vote kicks (personally or group wise), your hypothetical situation is impossible.
11/09/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Amine
<span class="truncated">...</span>

We zone into Underrot.

Tank says "I don't want this, Kick me."

We kick him because it makes no difference.


But it does matter, if this happens a lot, because instead of waiting a minute or two for a replacement you have to wait 5-10 minutes for a replacement. You have a real short memory or didn't play back when people didn't get a deserter buff for being kicked.


I'm not saying you are wrong, but this hasn't been my experience. Usually, when I am tanking, if our group needs to backfill a spot, regardless if it is DPS or a Healer, we pick someone up almost immediately.
11/09/2018 09:03 AMPosted by Hùntakahn
One way could be to keep track when you are booted from a group and have it stack and decline after time -- example system ....

1st time ) -- 10min Lock out --- 1 strike
2nd time ) -- (2 days later ) -- 20 min lock out -- 2 strike
3rd time ) -- ( 3 days later ) -- 45 min lock out -- 3 strikes
4th time ) -- ( 1 Day later ) -- 1 hour lockout -- still 3 strikes

Once your at 3 strikes you move to the hour lock out BUT -- ONE strike will be removed every 30 days from last one received. Maybe this is not the best but something like this could work


I actually really like this idea; it furthers to find a middle ground between the current system and what I originally proposed. A 10 minute lockout is not nearly as boorish as a 30 minute lockout so it isn't as punishing for people that are not actually bad actors. I would only change the timer's on the strikes to maybe an hour removing one strike.
I mean, who is to say that you didn't just make up that story and you deserved to be kicked? Regardless, there will always be abusers, but overall things like your anecdote aren't that common. Your changes allow for more abuse, so I don't see the point.
...

But it does matter, if this happens a lot, because instead of waiting a minute or two for a replacement you have to wait 5-10 minutes for a replacement. You have a real short memory or didn't play back when people didn't get a deserter buff for being kicked.


I'm not saying you are wrong, but this hasn't been my experience. Usually, when I am tanking, if our group needs to backfill a spot, regardless if it is DPS or a Healer, we pick someone up almost immediately.


that is with the current system that is penalizing people for being kicked - it didn't happen so fast in Cata when there was no penalties for being kicked.

Tanks that left the group or forced the group to kick them had to wait for a fair bit of time for replacements.
11/09/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Tauntcheat
I mean, who is to say that you didn't just make up that story and you deserved to be kicked? Regardless, there will always be abusers, but overall things like your anecdote aren't that common. Your changes allow for more abuse, so I don't see the point.


Really, calling me a liar is the way you want to go? Look up Ad Hominem there bud.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

I'm not saying you are wrong, but this hasn't been my experience. Usually, when I am tanking, if our group needs to backfill a spot, regardless if it is DPS or a Healer, we pick someone up almost immediately.


that is with the current system that is penalizing people for being kicked - it didn't happen so fast in Cata when there was no penalties for being kicked.

Tanks that left the group or forced the group to kick them had to wait for a fair bit of time for replacements.


I'm not really sure what to make of this; if there was no lockout then the supply of tanks would be greater and groups should be filled faster. Limiting the supply of tanks doesn't mean more demand is met. Your experience sounds like it might've had to do with content that didn't have a lot of people lining up to do.
As much as it sucks to have that happen, the current system works as intended most of the time.
11/09/2018 08:53 AMPosted by Paladina
Why not just leave the instance, same debuff no?


Before, you only got deserter if you left before participating in at least one boss kill in the instance. Later, it was changed to if you left or got kicked.

So before that change to deserter, tanks would demand to be kicked instead of leaving themselves, since by being kicked, they'd dodge the deserter debuff.

Still, I think the restrictions need to be loosened for rare deserters a little bit. I think they should make it so deserting times scale rather than instantly start out at 30 minutes.
If it's your first desertion in a week, it should be 5 minutes. Second is 10, third is 15, and so on, up to a maximum of 60 minutes.

(…because, let's be real, if someone's getting kicked out of ten dungeon groups in a week, the problem is probably them, and not the groups unfortunate enough to get "graced" with their presence.)
11/08/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Deadkyn
The 30 minute lockout when kicked from a Dungeon Finder group needs to be removed IF you are kicked from a group. This only serves to punish people who were unfairly removed from a group, and IF you were removed for being a jerk then the time in queue should be enough of a punishment.

A story from personal experience:

I was in a group recently and on the second pull of the dungeon a DPS for some reason jumps into the middle of the room, pulls 3-4 extra mobs, and pulls the boss. It probably doesn't need to be said, but our group wiped very quickly. This same DPS then types "lol", "ez", and "retards" in chat. I don't sweat it because I know it's pretty easy to remove a toxic player via in-game mechanics. However, to my surprise the vote to kick fails. I'm just thinking, are you fracking kidding me! I initiate a second vote while the DPS continues being toxic, which also fails. I then notice that the DPS and two other members of the group are from the same server, and I realize his friends are blocking his removal. Just as I make that realization, I am then removed from the group because these three have a majority of the vote.

It honestly didn't bother me that much because the queue wasn't that long, but now I have to deal with a deserter lockout! Come on, this is such poor implementation of a mechanic that by it's own tooltip is only meant for people who desert a dungeon finder group. Not for being forcibly removed.
God that sounds like the same idiot druid we had yesterday.
Kept pulling crap causing wipe after wipe then saying it wasnt him.
The last time when we got back where the wipes was happening I stopped at the door just to watch what was going on and sure enough the freak ran right thru the boss and a mob and pulled it directly over to two more packs, then said it wasnt him again.
I told the group I SAW him do it, told them good luck and pulled out of the dungeon.
I couldnt care less if these idiots wont kick him or not. I can always requeue and find a group that isnt filled full of morons.

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