All WWs AOE issues

Monk
All the aoe ww issues boil down to this.

When they neutered MotC stacking, they left in all the abilities that were tied or associated in important ways with them. It was a hasty, poorly though out change.

SEF was huge for stacking MotC. Now it's just a broken damage cooldown.

RJW was amazing for stacking MotC. Now it's just another aoe ability.

I think with how weak MotC is now, and how little skill expression it involves, it's probably time to just remove MotC stacks altogether. It only serves to add extra work and ramp up time that is entirely unnecessary given the power levels of the abilities. I can't say what to do with it.

I do understand MotC needed to be strongly reduced. And I get infinite stacking isnt appropriate. But a happy medium is nowhere in sight.

RJW is obviously in limbo because they keep changing it and they have been since legion until it found its home as a RJW applicator, to which they now essentially deleted MOTC stacks. It's probably time to scrap or re-design this ability now because the original goal and design is completely lost.

SEF. dear God it has been broken for how many years? Does anyone even LIKE this ability anymore? The functionality is crap. It takes GCDs to summon and focus or spread them yuck. I used to give it a pass because it stacked MotC stacks. But now MotC doesnt matter at all, so it doesnt really do anything besides increase output (when it works.)

Perhaps it's time to remove RJW, MotC, and SEF.

Cant forget their stance on FoF cleave. Feels like we constantly get punished for having FoF. At this point maybe just remove that too? If we cant have an effective way to use FoF in arenas, and FoF is held weak because it's a core rotational ability that cleaves, they really need to figure out what to do with it to make it feel good and powerful.

I feel FoF got nerfed and not eye beam, because FoF is a core ST rotational ability. Maybe that needs to change then so we can have strong aoe? The current iteration of FoF just doesnt feel good because they're balancing it across too much poorly. At this point, figure out what needs to happen and do it. There clearly isnt a happy medium. Either make it ST and make it feel good, which I'm fine with, or make it hit full aoe but too weak ST to use outside of aoe. Balance accordingly.

FoF just does a fraction of what it has in the past both damage and utility wise.

I just feel like WW wasnt well thought out this experience. It's being pulled in multiple directions without any focus and the changes are very half-complete. They dont know what to do, so they bandaid fix things and dont accommodate for the avalanche of other issues that crop up.

Figure out what WWs strengths are, discover the direction, and really focus and apply in one unified way.

As far as incap goes, either restore to usefulness, or remove It and give something in return that doesnt step on anyone's toes that give us a niche. As it stands now. Incap is just a weakened blind or imprison that is SO WEAK it has no application. Figure out what to do here.
oh dont forget the fact that if the main target dies in your FoF cleave you are still only doing 50% dmg to the next target you switch to during the channel
11/06/2018 06:58 AMPosted by Tenfuu
oh dont forget the fact that if the main target dies in your FoF cleave you are still only doing 50% dmg to the next target you switch to during the channel


Yes that is awful, poor design too, and communicated poorly as in not at all. At first I assumed it would swap targets with you until I learned otherwise because why would they design it that way?
11/06/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Ultrios
11/06/2018 06:58 AMPosted by Tenfuu
oh dont forget the fact that if the main target dies in your FoF cleave you are still only doing 50% dmg to the next target you switch to during the channel


Yes that is awful, poor design too, and communicated poorly as in not at all. At first I assumed it would swap targets with you until I learned otherwise because why would they design it that way?

i honestly stop casting at that point as the 50% cleave does the amount of all of 3-4k and it just feels like a waste
Oh how far FoF has fallen as an ability.

I remember when this was your bread and butter, and you'd never dream of interrupting it. Holding it for cleave at the right moments.

That big stack tiger brew FoF with stun that just blasted people. Right in the feels.

Even in legion it was soooo much better than now with the walking dead grip stun during serenity.

RIP FoF.
Also, the nerf of Cyclone Strikes/SCK from 40% to 10% was too much.

FoF 2ndary damage nerfed

Fist of the White Tiger only single target vs Strike of Windlord multi.

They nerfed our AoE too much - pretty much every AoE ability we had in Legion was nerfed.
11/06/2018 08:04 AMPosted by Ultrios
Oh how far FoF has fallen as an ability.

I remember when this was your bread and butter, and you'd never dream of interrupting it. Holding it for cleave at the right moments.

That big stack tiger brew FoF with stun that just blasted people. Right in the feels.

Even in legion it was soooo much better than now with the walking dead grip stun during serenity.

RIP FoF.


especially when you had fat 10 stack built up it hit like a truck
WW was an AOE god at the start of Legion then fell off in the mid tiers when other classes started scaling better and getting tier sets.

Towards the end they buffed WW to super Saiyan levels and it was an AOE god again.

I don't think they know what to do with the spec in terms of AOE.
I'd like to see some talent restructuring along with Serenity as the baseline WW CD.

First, improve the lackluster chi/energy talents:

  • Ascension: +30 to max energy, +1 to max chi, consecutive combo strikes increase energy regen by 2%, stacking to 20% max. Resets when CS is lost.
  • Energizing Elixir: no CD, uses chi to increase energy regen rate. Example: increases energy regen by 50% for up to 8/16/24 seconds per chi consumed. SnD style talent for players who don't like excessive downtime. Would trigger GCD and combo strikes.


Fix Touch of Karma:

  • ToK now heals you based on damage redirected from target enemy instead of damaging target, by default. PTR talent reduces ToK CD by 30s instead. Alternatively, ToK could be a self buff and redirect all damage taken into healing.


Rework Hit Combo and RJW, to clearly establish this row as AoE/filler:

  • Hit Combo: FoF damage is no longer reduced against secondary targets, and BCK reduces CD of FoF by an additional 2s (3s total/BCK).
  • RJW: costs 2 chi, 90% AP damage over 12s and reduces chi cost of RSK and SCK by 1 for duration, no CD.
  • Swap WDP and Invoke Xuen talents.


Serenity replaces SEF. SEF is now a talent in Serenity's place. SEF spirits do 50% of normal damage and duration increased to 18s.

  • Spiritual Focus reduces Serenity CD.
  • Invoke Xuen replaces WDP in this row.

Finally, change Mark of the Crane to the following:

  • MotC increases damage target takes from SCK by 60% for 15s instead of buffing base SCK damage. SCK now has a 4% chance to refund 1 chi each time it damages a target affected by MotC.
11/06/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Chauss
Ascension: +30 to max energy, +1 to max chi, consecutive combo strikes increase energy regen by 2%, stacking to 20% max. Resets when CS is lost.
Energizing Elixir: no CD, uses chi to increase energy regen rate. Example: increases energy regen by 50% for up to 8/16/24 seconds per chi consumed. SnD style talent for players who don't like excessive downtime. Would trigger GCD and combo strikes.

TBH, not a fan of the Ascension one, sounds almost exactly like Hit Combo in terms of playstyle, which is an ability I cannot stand using (some may agree or disagree its fine).
The EE change I actually love however, depending on how much chi you want to use on it will determine on the energy regen gained, I like it. It reminds me of Slice & Dice for rogue or a somewhat similar form to Hand Of Guldan for Demo Locks.

11/06/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Chauss
ToK now heals you based on damage redirected from target enemy instead of damaging target, by default. PTR talent reduces ToK CD by 30s instead. Alternatively, ToK could be a self buff and redirect all damage taken into healing.

Could be an interesting change, obvious (atleast from a PVP standpoint) im not a fan of losing TOK damage component, not because it was vital or good in anyway in arena, but moreso just from nostalgia, every time they change a component of an ability that has been there since WW's release i get a bit eerie.

11/06/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Chauss
Hit Combo: FoF damage is no longer reduced against secondary targets, and BCK reduces CD of FoF by an additional 1.5s (2.5s total/BCK).
RJW: costs 2 chi, 90% AP damage over 12s and reduces chi cost of RSK and SCK by 1 for duration, no CD.
Swap WDP and Invoke Xuen talents.

RJW one I like, but id rather just have the MOP iteration of RJW.

Switching WDP and Xuen's place in the talent tree im not a fan of. I like taking RJW for consistency, and I feel it suites multiple roles in arena, but some would like to take Xuen for the extra burst. Talent row feels fine the way it is and seems unecessary to change.
However:

11/06/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Chauss
erenity replaces SEF. SEF is now a talent in Serenity's place. SEF spirits do 50% of normal damage and duration increased to 18s.

I do like the idea of having Serenity baseline with WDP, and have the option to choose images as a talent, that'd be lit and images is clunky in general.

all from a PVP perspective ofc.
Chaus has some interesting stuff in there post.

if it was 2 charge serenity then we talking. if it was only 1 charge serenity but 1 min CD, id take that too.

if it was either of those things and turned into a versa buff instead of flat damage you guys would hear my screams from Australia.

on ultrius point about FOF, yeah its all over the place. blizz keeps making WWer more and more janky as we get more and more xpacks. they take off the aoe cap, they put it back, they nerf it in pvp again by 40%, they reduce that, they make it more again, look at mmo-champ over the last 3 weeks, they have messed with its damage 3 times in as many weeks. i look at it tonight and after nerfing it by what 15% of its dmg, they just buffed it higher than it is right now. blizz dont know what the hell to do with it.

our azerite traits range from good/ok to insultingly bad. at blizzcon and these Q:As recently they are all like:

" yeah we are going to retire the bad traits and buff some and give new ones "

meanwhile all but 1-2 of ours are dirt tier and im not seeing any changes or retired traits. the 2 new ones that are coming in 8.1 can be read in completely different ways.

is the new Glory of the Dawn azerite trait replacing swift roundhouse seeing as its:

Rising Sun Kick has a 25% chance to trigger a second time, dealing 3436 Physical damage and restoring 1 Chi.

does stacking that trait past 1 only increase its proc chance? does more than 1 trait increase the dmg each time ( so 2 traits are 6972 dmg etcs ) if you had 1 of those and 2 swift roundhouses would that all stack including the swift roundhouse onto the second procced attack seeing as its also a RSK?

who knows. /shrug

im also in agreement that SEF just needs to die. its been too buggy for years. it worked 100% of the time when it was a toggle, now you just cannot rely on it to do full damage like its supposed to due to janky coding and stupid pet AI.

i could go on for hours. but the spec needs mechanical fixes under the hood, a complete redistribution of where our dps comes from, for blizzard to make up there minds what they want this spec to be. for us to actually get a lore based design clarification. like what are we?? are we students of xuen who inact his will? are we literally some dudes that just walk around without weapons while mages drop meteors and comets on people? are we scholars who study and worship the celestials? theres no clear spec identity even bothered to be established by blizzard. and that carries over to the gameplay, we punch and kick - the end. theres no unifying design endgame here. you look at the striker and mystic in BDO and you know what they are about. you look at the monk in FF:ARR and you know what its about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrGBg6VGnIk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXHJL57fSX0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQwLFaoz8yU

hell even

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX9bD1e2gk0

then i look at what windwalkers are and just sigh. also as an aside, monks in general are the ONLY class that didnt get a visual update. theres no visceral impact to our abilities. we lack a clear identity. we 100% completely lack lore. and the little spec identity we do have doesnt marry up to the mission statement in the design of the spec. we are supposed to be some monster brawler whos unmatched in toe to toe fighting, meanwhile we get massacred in melee. we have no grapples, we have no parries and counter attacks. kung fu master in blade and soul MMO manages to capture all this in its gameplay as a martial artist. with a clear and set defined class identity that is married into the gameplay.

im just gonna stop. ive written this all many times over the years. the only reason why i still main this crap is because most of the other melee play mechanically boring as hell where WWers at least have a somewhat interesting rotation.
Were definitely on the same page Vi.
All it would take to fix our AoE is lifting the 50% restriction. It won't be OP and will also add some extra burst AoE strength to serenity which needs a buff to be competitive anyway right now.

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